Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ingrid Detter de Frankopan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. (non-admin closure) Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 07:19, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Ingrid Detter de Frankopan

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Notability. The subject does not appear to have any encyclopedia-worthy accomplishments, just a list of her children, two of whom do have their own Wikipedia pages Lilipo25 (talk) 17:02, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sweden-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 17:07, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
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 * Comment. Stockholm University does have a "Carl Lindhagen chair in international law". And Ingrid Detter does verifiably have a 1965 PhD in international law from Stockholm University . If it can be verified that she once held the chair, she should pass WP:PROF. And she also appears to pass WP:AUTHOR for multiple books with multiple published reviews . But the genealogy cruft has to go. Until it does, the article in its nominated state is a case for WP:TNT —David Eppstein (talk) 17:52, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The "genealogy cruft" cannot entirely go because she is deeply involved in the Frankopan family controvery, from buying former Frankopan's castle for which lack of care is violating the signed contracts, providing false information to "prove" the existence "Princes of Doimi de Frankopan" which never existed, up to be represented to Pope John Paul II as a Frankopan rather than by her real name.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 01:09, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Who cares what some long-out-of-power aristocrats think of the name she calls herself. It may be relevant for her husband (if her husband were notable enough for an article) but not to what she's notable for. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:14, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Miki Filigranski is the original author of a very long and extensive bashing of the entire Frankopan family over this name change on all three of their Wikipedia pages - Ingrid Detter de Frankopan, her son Peter Frankopan, and her daughter Lady Nicholas Windsor. For years, Wikipedia editors have been removing it from all three pages for bias and relevance only to have Miki put it back up again repeatedly. I cut it down severely on all the pages a few months ago, but frankly, it should come down entirely on all the articles. It is irrelevant, and the fact that it was illegal to use a noble title without authorization in a now-defunct Empire 200 years ago has nothing to do with this family today - they only made the name change within the last 20 years, and it is completely legal for them to do so.Lilipo25 (talk) 01:34, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Firstly, make one more WP:PERSONAL attack on me with such lies, you are going to get reported to the admins. Secondly, what are you talking about? This information was included there for a long time before I even reverted them recently. Thirdly, what bashing? Citing reliable sources is "bashing"? How it is irrelevant when they, including Ingrid, falsely claimed to be descendants of the noble Frankopan family? They made a fraud. It is notable that Ingrid provided another author, who was writing on the Frankopan family, with false information to prove the existence of her husband's family which did not.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 05:01, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You need to be more careful. Fraud is a criminal offense, and should not be mentioned in the context of a WP:BLP without proof of a criminal conviction, not just newspaper opinion-piece allegations. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:45, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * As David Eppstein said, there has been NO "fraud" committed and again, you cannot make slanderous statements like that about the Frankopans in an encyclopedia when they are not supported by cold facts. Your "reliable sources" don't support half the statements you have made in these articles that you attach them to, and in particular your long and often-irrelevant statements in the Frankopan Family article. Much of what you have to say there is merely your biased opinion, which is not permitted in an encyclopedia article: you cannot, for example, say that Louis' cousin denounced him in order "to save the reputation of the family name". Or that Ingrid "influenced with false information the publishing of a book with the intention to distort history about these two families" - as you are not inside her head, you have no idea what her "intentions" were, even if you had actual proof that she "influenced with false information", which is not supported by the source. And you cannot make blatantly biased and slanted comments like "members of de Lupis family managed to get presented [to the Pope] not by their original name yet as Frankopans" - that clearly has a negative slant and is therefore not a neutral POV. Yes, all of that is indeed "bashing". You are arguing with two editors right now who are telling you that your edits are not acceptable. And if you look up above, at least one other editor in this same section has also said that your "genealogy" comments need to be deleted. Perhaps you should consider that you are not correct, and everyone else wrong. Lilipo25 (talk) 06:18, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This discussion is out of scope here so will make a short reply. You have been warned about personal attack on me, so you are getting reported. Reliable sources and cold facts are provided. There is no "my biased opinion", that's cited from reliable sources - it is really intriguing why are you openly ignoring that fact, better to say, lying. Per WP:CONSENSUS number do not matter, and I am sticking by the facts and reliable sources while you are not.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 06:27, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Knock yourself out reporting me all you like - it isn't a personal attack to point out that as you could not possibly be inside Ingrid de Frankopan's head, you could not know that she had duplicitous "intentions", and no unbiased source could possibly know that, either. I repeat, such statements - of which you have made a great many in at least four articles about the Frankopans - are not supported by any acceptable, unbiased sources. They are therefore not acceptable for an encyclopedia article, which requires a neutral POV (and if you think I'm not allowed to say that, please, report away, Miki!)Lilipo25 (talk) 06:38, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * These aristocrats are dead and cannot think of anything. Those who think about the controvery are contemporary people, including her family members. It is relevant to her personal life as well because she added even more stuff regarding the controversy, reliable sources reported on this, we cannot deny and censorship that.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 01:25, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Someone changing their name to something else might be relevant, if there are sources on it. She could have changed her name to The Goddess Luna, Emperor of the Moon and Rightful Ruler of the Cislunar World for all I care. Some other group of people clinging onto titles that became irrelevant 100 years ago getting mad about a name-change is not relevant. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:45, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * This controversy is extensively reported in reliable sources, including scholarly papers. It is not a simple name adoption as they claimed to be descendants of the noble Frankopan family. It is relevant to the article and public to understand how she got the surname "de Frankopan" - through marriage. However, that's not the only thing she had done. She bought a whole castle and other stuff, as said. However, I don't care what's going to happen with this article until there's a link to the Frankopan family article's section.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 05:01, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep - WP:AUTHOR and WP:GNG. Sources are ok.BabbaQ (talk) 20:09, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Wait If I have a kid, and my kid marries a minor member of the British royal family, I get to have a Wikipedia page? Seriously, folks, before we can keep this page someone has to find sources that establish that this woman is notable for something.  Sources to show that she passes WP:PROF, for example.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:59, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * You did read the comments above, right? The ones providing a likely case for WP:PROF and sources for WP:AUTHOR? I agree that the supposed title of nobility by marriage is not notable, but there appears to be more here than what is in the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:52, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Point is that the page is in WP:TNT territory. Now, if that chair is a "real" chair (that is, a professorship conferred as an indication of notability as a scholar,) and somebody wants  to turn this into a a page about a notable legal scholar, I'm good with that.  But unless somebody puts the effort into doing that, we're better off without it.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:16, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. I edited the article to focus on her academic career and books, and to treat her notable family members as a side note rather than the main reason for the article. So far I've found 10 books and 27 reviews, but I think there are more of both where those came from. It's a very clear pass of WP:AUTHOR now, and also a pass of WP:PROF via the named professorship (for which I found a source that I think is convincing enough). —David Eppstein (talk) 01:09, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Excellent editing of the article, David Eppstein! It's much better now and actually worth keeping, imo.Lilipo25 (talk) 01:34, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep: notable academic, author of many seriously-reviewed books. Pam  D  08:43, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep per David Eppstein excellent editing.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:52, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:PROF and AUTHOR. Doesn't seem like the nominator performed an adequate WP:BEFORE. Thsmi002 (talk) 11:49, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. She is clearly notable in her own right under PROF and AUTHOR, irrespective of her husband's genealogy hobby. --Tataral (talk) 14:25, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable academic. WP:HEY. /Julle (talk) 15:18, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:HEY. XOR&#39;easter (talk) 15:24, 29 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep...this is a academic career and books, Notable academic.anupam[ 05:45, 2 June 2019 (UTC) ]
 * Keep I made the proposal for deletion. Since the article has now been rewritten by David Eppstein to include her published works and other academic accomplishments and is no longer just a list of her children, I think it is now worth keeping. Lilipo25 (talk) 00:26, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. the books are sufficient. The information about her family is irrelvant and needs to be removed.  DGG ( talk ) 04:11, 4 June 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.