Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/International Association for the Study of Dreams


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__. I see a consensus to Keep this article, especially after work was done on the article since its nomination. Liz Read! Talk! 06:54, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

International Association for the Study of Dreams

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Does not meet WP:ORGCRITE. I am unable to find significant independent coverage in RS; a total lack of results on Google Scholar is particularly concerning for an academic organization. On Google Books there's some results, but they all appear to be from people affiliated with the organization, e.g.. Interestingly, one of the most prominent authors in the search results is one Clare Johnson, who is not mentioned in the Wikipedia article but whose Google Books author bio mentions leadership of this organization. Absent clearly reliable sources, and noting the classification of these books as "self-help" texts, I'm a bit concerned that we may be laundering a fringe organization, and/or that there may be more than one organization by this name, one more reputable than the other (but neither of them notable). Dreaming (journal) could be a potential WP:ATD target, but the prior concerns of reputation laundering give me pause. Both this article and Dreaming (journal) cite this website to claim that the peer-reviewed Heidelberg University publication IJoDR is published by IASD, but the actual website makes no claim to affiliation with IASD, and its Editorial Team masthead makes no mention of any figures listed at this article. signed,Rosguill talk 18:44, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Organizations, Psychiatry, Psychology,  and California. signed,Rosguill talk 18:44, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration.  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   18:57, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Comment: The IASD is legit (eg see governance and notable members), and is notable in the real world, but (as is obvious) there's a lack of reliable sources to establish notability at Wikipedia. Have listed it at the article rescue squadron.  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   19:51, 13 February 2024 (UTC)


 * The association is certainly not fringe, nor is their journal, Dreaming.  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   20:10, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * ("IASD") may be helpful. Google books search, too.
 *  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   15:46, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Dear editors, the page does indeed not show sufficiently the academic and scholarly nature of the International Association for the Study of Dreams, so thank you for spotting this. It is indeed incredibly thin. First clear matter is that the IASD publishes with the American Psychological Association the academic journal Dreaming, this should be stated at the top instead of the section on the International Journal of Dream Research. Dreaming has a current impact factor of 1.8, which is a high impact factor for psychology, meaning that each article is cited by 1.8 articles in the 2 years after publication. The journal is also 95th out of 147 multidisciplinary journals, which is very creditable: https://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/drm/. Being published by APA is very prestigious, for example APA publish many of the world's top psychology journals, such as Journal of Experimental Psychology. (The International Journal of Dream Research is relevant as it publishes the abstracts of the IASD annual conference each year, but this journal is published by Heidelberg University and not IASD, so the journal Dreaming should be more prominent on the page.) The list of researchers in the Governance and notable members sections is also very sparse, given there has been a new president every year since 1983. Professor Ernest Hartmann of Tufts University was a past-president and very eminent author and psychiatrist, he is at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hartmann, also a president was Stanley Krippner, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanley_Krippner, and founding member Stephen LaBerge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_LaBerge. Booklist of founding members and past-presidents is here: https://www.asdreams.org/booklist-presidents/. There is also a lack of publications mentioned on the wikipedia page, some of the presidents' publications could be added there. All credit to the editors for this having been spotted, the page gives a poor impression of the world's most important dream research association. I can make suggestions for improving it and for showing the notable nature of the association. (And to disclose, I was IASD President 2001-2. There are many professors in the list of presidents, such as Katja Valli, professor in Sweden and president 2013-15, and Michelle Carr, president 2021-23 and associate professor director of the world's leading nightmare sleep lab in University of Montreal, and David Kahn, of Harvard Medical School and president 2007-08.

Thank you, DreamerMTB 86.129.93.134 (talk) 20:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC)


 * What would be most convincing would be examples of news articles, peer-reviewed journal articles, or books by academic publishers, that describe the IASD, its impact, structure, history, etc. signed,Rosguill talk 21:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, indeed, point taken. There are a large number of academics who are IASD members, in disciplines from film studies to anthropology to psychology to neuroscience. There are also many psychotherapists and psychoanalysts. I will ask them for such citations, as well as providing some myself. For example, Blagrove, M. & Lockheart, J. (2023) The Science and Art of Dreaming, Routledge, page xiii, 'This research was encouraged by discussions with the eclectic mixture of disciplines and people at the conferences of the International Association for the Study of Dreams, which also publishes the academic journal Dreaming.'
 * Thank you.
 * DreamerMTB
 * 86.129.93.134 (talk) 22:44, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Please see the Golden Rule.  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   09:48, 14 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Wait and see?: Could we now reconsider this AfD and instead template the article for reference improvement?  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   17:12, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Dear editors, Here are three science publications of studies that acknowledge funding by IASD. I will send more after these three. 1. Article in the journal Sleep, which is the highest ranked sleep science journal: Carr M, Nielsen T. Morning REM sleep naps facilitate broad access to emotional semantic networks. SLEEP 2015;38(3):433–443. https://academic.oup.com/sleep/article/38/3/433/2416949 acknowledgement is in pdf version and here

2. Carr, M., Blanchette-Carrière, C., Solomonova, E., Paquette, T., & Nielsen, T. (2016). Intensified daydreams and nap dreams in frequent nightmare sufferers. Dreaming, 26(2), 119–131. https://doi.org/10.1037/drm0000024 article acknowledges IASD but is behind paywall. Copy on Researchgate is here: http://www.dreamscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Carr-et-al-2016-Intensified-Daydreams-and-Dreams-in-Nightmare-Sufferers.pdf 3. Carr, M., Blanchette-Carrière, C., Marquis, L-P., Ting, C.T., & Nielsen, T. (2016). Nightmare sufferers show atypical emotional semantic associations and prolonged REM sleep-dependent emotional priming. Sleep Medicine, 20, 80-87. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.sleep.2015.11.013. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S138994571502064X?via%3Dihub

Thank you, DreamerMTB 2A00:23C7:7AA9:7700:8937:49DF:3401:DF5F (talk) 15:07, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Dear editors, Here are three further science publications of studies that acknowledge funding by IASD. 4. Schädlich, M., Erlacher, D. & Schredl, M. (2017) Improvement of darts performance following lucid dream practice depends on the number of distractions while rehearsing within the dream – a sleep laboratory pilot study. Journal of Sports Sciences, 35, 2365-2372. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/02640414.2016.1267387 5. Sparrow, G., Hurd, R., Carlson, R., Molina, A. (2018). Exploring the effects of galantamine paired with meditation and dream reliving on recalled dreams: Toward an integrated protocol for lucid dream induction and nightmare resolution. Consciousness and Cognition, 63, 74-88. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.concog.2018.05.012. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053810017306244?via%3Dihub 6. Eranimos, B., & Funkhouser, A. (2023). An exploratory study of the Eastern understanding of déjà rêvé (already dreamed) experiences in Kerala-Indian culture. Dreaming, 33, 153–163. https://doi.org/10.1037/drm0000230 http://www.dreamscience.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Eranimos-Funkhouser.pdf Thank you, DreamerMTB 86.129.93.134 (talk) 17:59, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Dear editors, [I suggest here further text that acknowledges the importance of IASD for the science of dreaming.] As a result of an event at the 2008 conference of the International Association for the Study of Dreams, Mark Blagrove changed his research from quantitative and statistical investigations of groups of dreams to the investigation of insights that occur when single dreams are considered by the dreamer (Blagrove & Lockheart, 2023, pp.119-120). The single dream that elicited this change in research focus is reported in The Psychologist, professional magazine of the British Psychological Society (Blagrove, 2009). This change in research focus led to studies by Blagrove with other IASD members on the insight and empathy effects of group discussions of single dreams (Blagrove et al., 2019; Edwards et al., 2013, 2015). Blagrove, M. (2009). Dreaming—Motivated or meaningless? The Psychologist, 22(8), 680–683. https://www.bps.org.uk/psychologist/dreaming-motivated-or-meaningless Blagrove, M. & Lockheart, J. (2023). The Science and Art of Dreaming. New York & Abingdon, Oxon.: Routledge. Blagrove, M., Hale, S., Lockheart, J., Carr, M., Jones, A., & Valli, K. (2019). Testing the empathy theory of dreaming: The relationships between dream sharing and trait and state empathy. Frontiers in Psychology, 10, 1351. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2019.01351. Edwards, C.L., Malinowski, J.E., McGee, S.L., Bennett, P.D., Ruby, P.M., & Blagrove, M.T. (2015). Comparing personal insight gains due to consideration of a recent dream and consideration of a recent event using the Ullman and Schredl dream group methods. Frontiers in Psychology, 6, 831. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.00831. Edwards CL, Ruby PM, Malinowski JE, Bennett PD, Blagrove MT. (2013). Dreaming and insight. Frontiers in Psychology, 4, 979. https://doi.org/10.3389/fpsyg.2013.00979.

DreamerMTB 86.129.93.134 (talk) 18:53, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * None of the above appear to actually contain independent coverage of the IASD. It also seems somewhat tendentious to suggest that the linked Blagrove paper conveys anything regarding the relevance of the IASD, as the extent of its coverage is as follows: At the risk of self-indulgence, I relate the following dream, from the morning of 12 July 2008, the last day of the 25th Conference of the International Association for the Study of Dreams, in Montreal. It illustrates the use of free-association, and the sudden realisations that can occur during this process. signed,Rosguill talk 19:16, 15 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Delete. Significant independent coverage of this organization is lacking, including the above that was added to this discussion. Fails WP:ORGCRITE and GNG. As stated above, books are written by affiliated authors. Notability is not inherited from persons affiliated with an organization nor from publications or academic journals produced by the organization - please see WP:INHERITORG and WP:NOTINHERITED. Hence, none of the above posted material indicates notability for this organization. Also, no organization has notability simply because it exists and has received kudos through the grapevine - please see WP:ORGSIG. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:15, 16 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Update: I believe that references 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, and 12 (Kramer, Gervasi, Love, Bogzaran, Stuever, Henig, and Auchincloss) now meet the Golden Rule. The original name Association for the Study of Dreams (ASD) yielded three lengthy pieces from The Washington Post. Still looking.
 * Please consider your own "top three" from these references before !voting to delete.
 * For your convenience, here are the three verified Washington Post citations:
 * Will wade through this in-text Internet Archive search suggested by GreenC at the article rescue squadron page this evening: search results (for "Association for the Study of Dreams" in the text). I expect that most of the 1,159 results will be trivial mentions or links to the association's viral ethics code.
 * looks good, too.
 * Thanks. That's my best shot,  Esowteric  +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   13:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Will wade through this in-text Internet Archive search suggested by GreenC at the article rescue squadron page this evening: search results (for "Association for the Study of Dreams" in the text). I expect that most of the 1,159 results will be trivial mentions or links to the association's viral ethics code.
 * looks good, too.
 * Thanks. That's my best shot,  Esowteric  +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   13:39, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Dear editors, 1. I have entered the journal title Dreaming into Scopus, the major journal database, https://www.scopus.com/sources.uri, this gives a current citation score of 2.8 (i.e., on average each article is cited 2.8 times in the two years after publication in the journal), and the journal is ranked 102nd out of 209 general psychology journals. Coupled with the journal's publisher being the American Psychological Association, this is external evidence for the scientific and research quality of the journal and the Association that owns and publishes the journal. The journal's office is at Harvard Medical School. 2. I have followed the advice on magazine blogs here: 'Some newspapers, magazines, and other news organizations host online columns they call blogs. These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals, but use them with caution because blogs may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process.' In this Psychology Today blog IASD is described as 'the professional society for dream scholars/scientists' by Patrick McNamara, who has never held office in IASD. He has spent most of his career at the Boston VA and Boston University School of Medicine in the Neurology departments. He currently is Professor of Psychology at Northcentral University. https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/dream-catcher/201706/some-resources-people-interested-in-sleep-and-dreams 3 The list of experiment grants jointly awarded by IASD and the Dream Science Foundation to sleep labs and psychology departments worldwide in 2023 and since the first awards in 2006 is here: http://www.dreamscience.org/grant-awards-published-studies/. Many of these awards have resulted in peer reviewed journal papers, I listed six of these above. Regards, DreamerMTB 86.129.93.134 (talk) 09:39, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep, I think the opponents of this deletion have proven their case for GNG. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Dear editors, I suggest the following addition to the IASD page. Lucid dream researcher Stephen LaBerge, PhD, was one of the founders of IASD in 1983. He is listed as a founder on the IASD website in this alphabetical list of IASD Presidents and Founders, https://www.asdreams.org/booklist-presidents/, and in this announcement of his keynote address at the very prestigious neuroscience Donders Institute, in the Netherlands, his bio lists him as a co-founder of IASD https://dreslerlab.org/laberge/. His page in Wikipedia is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_LaBerge. Regards, DreamerMTB 86.129.93.134 (talk) 17:41, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hey man im josh (talk) 23:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Hi, DreamerMTB. Since that doesn't add to the notability of the subject (the IASD), if you don't mind, I'll copy that request across to the IASD's talk page, and I'll see what I can do to incorporate it into the article. Sorry, I'm engrossed in the last quarter of a book at the moment. Thanks again, and regards,  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   17:50, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Blogpost by Professor Patrick McNamara in Psychology Today on the International Association for the Study of Dreams. Professor McNamara has spent most of his career at the Boston VA and Boston University School of Medicine in the Neurology departments, and has been the recipient of grant awards from the National Institutes of Health to study sleep and dreams. He is currently Professor of Psychology at Northcentral University and has not held office in IASD. https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/dream-catcher/201202/the-international-association-the-study-dreams

DreamerMTB 86.129.93.134 (talk) 16:40, 21 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks, yes that's another and we have that covered. I'm hoping that someone will be able to assess the citations listed above under "Update", to establish whether or not the article now passes WP:GNG.  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   17:07, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Three quotations downloaded from archive.org 21st February 2024, https://archive.org/search?query=%22Association+for+the+Study+of+Dreams%22+&sin=TXT Bulkeley, K. (2017). An introduction to the psychology of dreaming. ABC-CLIO Page 115 The early years of the 21st century have brought many new opportunities for spreading information about the psychology of dreaming to a broad public audience. The primary driver of these opportunities has been the emergence of the worldwide web, which has radically transformed the way we communicate, teach, work, play, and interact. Virtually every researcher, sleep laboratory, and dream-related organization has a website providing access to a wealth of materials, enabling people from any place with an internet connection to learn about current findings in dream psychology. For example, the International Association for the Study of Dreams (IASD) sponsors online conferences, organizes collaborative research projects, and offers many ways for people to connect digitally with academics, clinicians, artists, etc. all over the world (www.asdreams.org). Many other groups in dream research and education link to each other through the IASD, creating an extensive network of therapists and practitioners from a wide variety of backgrounds.

Hunt, H. T. (1989). The multiplicity of dreams: Memory, imagination, and consciousness. Yale University Press. Page 4 Meanwhile, on an organizational level, the Sleep Research Society (srs) and its small cluster of researchers focusing on physiological, neurocognitive, and content analysis approaches to dreams have been supplemented by a more eclectic organization, the Association for the Study of Dreams (asp). Within ASD, a diverse group of Freudian, Jungian, existential, and other psychologists interested primarily in dream interpretation and “dreamwork” has banded together with others attempting to relate dreams to altered states of consciousness and transpersonal psychology, and a small number of srs experimenters.

Miller, J. (2017). Dream patterns: revealing the hidden patterns of our waking lives. Scotland : Findhorn Press. Page 154 The IASD is a scholarly association for the study of dreams, including dream interpretation, dreams in culture, creativity and dreams, the physiology of dreaming, and lucid dreaming. They publish two magazines and a newsletter, hold conferences (both traditional and online), and provide classes on dream work. Their website has many useful resources, including bibliographies, videos, podcasts, recordings from past conferences, and even images from dream art exhibitions.

DreamerMTB 86.129.93.134 (talk) 23:20, 21 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Thanks, I'll copy these across to the article's talk page, and have a look at them later.  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   08:51, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Have declined the first reference (author not independent, and not really that significant coverage). Have added the second and third references (with quotations: we can worry about wording and copyediting after this AfD). See article talk page section, and thanks again.  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   11:40, 22 February 2024 (UTC)


 * Keep, try these archives of the pay-walled sources above:  Rjjiii  (talk) 03:42, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for archiving these.  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   08:29, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Dear editors, Major art exhibition book published by Cornell University Press stating exhibition and book were endorsed by several scholarly societies, including the Association for the Study of Dreams.

Dreams 1900-2000: science, art and the unconscious Mind. Edited by Lynn Gamwell. Cornell University Press, 1999. Book of exhibition held in New York, Vienna and Paris (1999-2001).

Page n5 “The exhibition and book are sponsored by the Lucy Daniels Foundation, and have the endorsement of the American Psychoanalytic Association, American Psychiatric Association, Division 39 for Psychoanalysis of the American Psychological Association, American Psychological Association, Association for the Study of Dreams, International Psychoanalytical Association, and the World Psychiatric Association.”

Retrieved 25th February 2024 from https://archive.org/details/dreams19002000sc00unse/page/n5/mode/2up?q=%22Association+for+the+Study+of+Dreams%22

DreamerMTB 81.154.219.215 (talk) 18:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Dear editors, The International Association for the Study of Dreams (1997) IASD Dreamwork Ethics Statement is cited as used in a 2014 paper on dream-sharing in the Journal of Tropical Psychology, published by Cambridge University Press. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-tropical-psychology/article/abs/dream-sharing-as-a-healing-method-tropical-roots-and-contemporary-community-potential/AB4122B8F8646BB8E184675C777F14A0 [apologies I can't access the full paper, link here goes to abstract and full reference list, latter includes IASD as author.] DreamerMTB 81.154.219.215 (talk) 18:49, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Substantial analysis of the proposed source material would be quite helpful. Further walls of text would not be. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Seraphimblade Talk to me 07:33, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I'll look into these. Have copied these suggestions across to the article talk page.  Esowteric +  Talk  +  Breadcrumbs   20:14, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Keep: Probably the first and third Washington Post articles given a few comments above are about the organization or a conference they've put on. Rest is confirmation that they exist and provide funding for research. I think it's ok for notability now. Oaktree b (talk) 13:19, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: the sources founded by Esowteric provide enough coverage to prove notability. Rublamb (talk) 22:17, 28 February 2024 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.