Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/International Christian School of Budapest


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  12:22, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

International Christian School of Budapest

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Just found this stub article while patrolling recent changes. It seems IPs tried to add promotional and unsourced content, and I reverted them. I did a quick WP:BEFORE and found no good source in the internet. Per WP:NSCHOOL, All universities, colleges and schools, including high schools, middle schools, primary (elementary) schools, and schools that only provide a support to mainstream education must satisfy either this guideline (WP:ORG) or the general notability guideline, or both. For-profit educational organizations and institutions are considered commercial organizations and must satisfy those criteria. It does not seem like this school meets any of the criteria. If anyone can find multiple secondary reliable sources where this school has significant coverage, they are welcomed to add them to the article. Thanks. Masum Reza 📞 12:54, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. Masum Reza 📞  12:54, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Hungary-related deletion discussions. Masum Reza 📞  12:54, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Education-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:02, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 13:02, 14 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete - I wasn't able to find any instances of significant coverage in independent, reliable sources for this school. The mentions I did find appeared to be either advertising, or otherwise not independent of the school, or simply drive-by references to it that did not discuss anything about the school in detail. WP:GNG failed. FOARP (talk) 16:36, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete No notable content. No notable alumni. Nothing useful. Perhaps could start over with new sources. Bubbasax (talk) 23:43, 14 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Notability is not based on what is in the article. Sure it's just a bad stub, but it took me just seconds to find enough in depth coverage of the school to justify an article. How about http://budapesttimes-archiv.bzt.hu/2012/09/07/international-christian-school-of-budapest-2/ for example? A lengthy article about the school by the Budapest TImes. 19 years old in 2012, accreditation,  facilities, AP classes, significant foreign student population, interview with the director...  It's one of the more expensive high schools in Hungary per https://dailynewshungary.com/schools-for-the-elite-the-most-expensive-high-schools-in-hungary/ . Not useful  directly for notability, but there's an interesting commentary by a former student on the motivation of the school's teachers here http://hungarianfreepress.com/2018/01/23/pastor-steven-anderson-a-vitriolic-american-baptist-and-his-hungarian-connection/ (it's just a personal aside by the writer and does not associate the school with the main topic of the article) . I think there's more than info available to justify an article, and I'm sure if I spent more than a few seconds on an English search there would be more. Meters (talk) 21:20, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I saw the Budapest Times article in my WP:BEFORE, it's clearly not independent of the subject as it is written by an employee of the school (e.g., "And we’re growing – 2012-2013 brings our largest enrollment ever..."). Similarly I saw the Daily News Hungary article, but it's a one-sentence-mention, not significant coverage. Likewise I saw the Hungarian Free Press piece, but this hardly says anything about the school and is anyway written by a former pupil (not independent). I didn't see anything indicating notability. FOARP (talk) 21:41, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I explicitly said that Hungarian Free Press piece was not directly useful for establishing notability and that it was by a former student. Why are you repeating that?
 * This is a Hungarian school. Did you look at Hungarian sources? If not then I don't think your Before was sufficient. I don't read Hungarian, but I have already asked at the schools project for assistance from anyone who does in looking for sources. I am almost certain that an expensive foreign (English) high school with AP courses and a more-than-25-year history can be shown to be notable, regardless of what we have found so far. Meters (talk) 22:10, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I looked at any source that mentioned the subject findable through Google. You openly admit that you didn't look at Hungarian sources but yet you still voted keep - so I'm not sure why you're raising this point. FOARP (talk) 16:43, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I don't understand your objection. Your logic seems to be seriously flawed. I obviously think the subject is notable based on the English sources I have read. You seem to be to saying that I should not have formed an opinion that it was notable without having first read Hungarian sources. That's ridiculous. While I think that any claim that it is not notable .must ensure that there are no useful sources in Hungarian, it is certainly not necessary to do so to determine that it is notable. And that's why I raised the question of Hungarian sources, to answer your question. You state that you did WP:BEFORE so I asked if you looked at Hungarian sources. Meters (talk) 04:20, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * "This is a Hungarian school. Did you look at Hungarian sources? If not then I don't think your Before was sufficient". 1) I did look at the Hungarian sources, 2) you did not, 3) obviously I don't think the English-language directories and bare-mentions of the school are sufficient, 4) a good WP:BEFORE reviews all available relevant documents as a document may cast doubt on the notability of something rather than supporting it (e.g., it shows that there are multiple subjects with the same name). FOARP (talk) 10:13, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * I am well aware of what I wrote, and thanks for finally giving a clear answer to the question I asked almost two weeks ago, whether you had looked at Hungarian sources. I accept that you did WP:BEFORE as you claimed. I am also well aware of your opinion on the notability of this subject(as is everyone else on this thread, I'm sure). Again, your apparent position that I cannot form an opinion that a subject is notable without first having looked at all available sources including those in foreign languages is simply wrong. So, are all the other KEEP opinions where editors did not look for Hungarian sources also invalid according to you? As I said, your logic is seriously flawed. Or, are you being intentionally obtuse? This is verging on WP:BLUDGEON and I will not reply to you again. I'm sure the admin who closes this AFD will give your position its due consideration.
 * I would be interested in hearing from the OP User:Masumrezarock100 and the third editor user:Bubbasax who thought this article should be deleted. Neither of them has commented since this article was improved. The OP is active, but Bubbasax was only active on En.Wikipedia that one day and may no longer be active. Meters (talk) 22:15, 27 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the ping. I may look like active here, but I usually come here for replacing files hosted on Commons and revert vandalism. I totally had forgotten about this AFD. Regarding the article from Budapest Times, it did come up in my search results during WP:BEFORE but one source isn't nearly enough to establish notability. All other links I could find in the search results are profiles of the school and none of them are what I'd call independent sources. For the record, I do not speak/understand Hungarian, so it is hard for me to assess a Hungarian source's quality. To be honest, I couldn't find any news article/reliable good source about this school on Google search not even in Hungarian. Please ping me if you reply. Thanks. Masum Reza <sup style="color:orange;">📞 00:32, 28 November 2019 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * http://budapesttimes-archiv.bzt.hu/2012/09/07/international-christian-school-of-budapest-2/ - good coverage but not independent, highly promotional
 * https://dailynewshungary.com/schools-for-the-elite-the-most-expensive-high-schools-in-hungary/ - as Meter's said, it's like a directory, but not in-depth coverage.
 * http://hungarianfreepress.com/2018/01/23/pastor-steven-anderson-a-vitriolic-american-baptist-and-his-hungarian-connection/ - only passing mentions
 * If did a quick assessment of the sources Meters provided but none of them doesn't appear to contribute towards GNG. PER WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES, all schools must meet GNG and have WP:SIGCOV in multiple reliable independent sources. I hope my comments are helpful, thanks. Feel free to provide more independent and reliable sources if you vote keep. <u style="color:#087643;font-face:arial;text-shadow:gray 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em;">Masum Reza <sup style="color:orange;">📞 00:48, 28 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment I am a parent of a student at the school. I would like to add to the article but I see that the page is up for deletion!!! What is this nonsense? Who would do something like this? Please reset the article to what it used to be! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:1110:205:1F34:D51F:2E20:8F8B:EB07 (talk) 11:42, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
 * It's being considered for deletion. You may still add material to the article while it's at AFD. If you do add material it's a good idea to mention it here so that editors know to reevaluate the article. Or you may provide sources here so that someone can add it for you. Meters (talk) 21:31, 15 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep: Thanks to the content and citations aded by, the article now has reliable secondary sources, namely accreditation commissions, who send independent reviewers to schools to judge their quality as measured against education standards. I have also made a few additions. Given its accreditation status, its offering of AP classes, and its role in drawing missions to the Budapest area, the article now reflects its notability. Easily passs WP:GNG. Cheers! — Grand&#39;mere Eugene (talk) 01:18, 17 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep Following the additions by, I have gone and done various cleanup including infobox, text, added relevant categories and updated logo etc. I've also added about it being a popular choice among Chinese parents with a good journal citation (this one took some time to find). No longer a stub now. Steven (Editor) (talk) 23:06, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  NNADI GOOD LUCK  ( Talk &#124; Contribs ) 13:48, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - Regarding the newly added sources:
 * 1) The International Christian School of Budapest website is clearly not independent of the subject,
 * 2) The ACSI website is simply a directory listing and not significant coverage, arguably not independent as it is part of the same religious schools movement as the school,
 * 3) The Middle States Association website is simply a directory listing and not significant coverage,
 * 4) "Displaying Diaspora: Chinese Christian Presence in Hungary after 1989" gives only a single, brief mention of the subject ("the International Christian School of Budapest and Hungarian schools with good educational reputation are also popular among Chinese parents" - and that's it),
 * 5) The Middle States Association news article simply lists the school in a long list of schools that they accredit,
 * 6) The "East-West Church Ministry Report" article is not a reliable source as it's a self-published news-sheet of a religious organisation, is not independent of the subject as the writers appear linked to it, and gives only a bare mention of it in a single sentence ("One of the major factors for missions relocating regional offices to Budapest has been the development of the International Christian School of Budapest, an accredited program (grades 1-12) with 150 students")
 * 7) The AP Course Audit site is not significant coverage, is simply a directory,
 * 8) The ACT International Test Centers list is simply a directory and as such not sigcov.
 * In summary, this is simply ref spam that does nothing to save the article and as such my delete vote stands. FOARP (talk) 16:56, 21 November 2019 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:00, 22 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment:, I appreciate your analysis of sources, but I disagree with your charcterization that they comprise ref spam. The Association of Christian Schools International, Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools, Advanced Placement, and American College Testing sources represent organizations that require member schools to meet rigorous organizational and curricular standards. The Middle States Association, for example, carries the approval of both the Council for Higher Education Accreditation and the United States Department of Education, and the Association of Christian Schools International has the approval of the National Council for Private School Accreditation. While this may seem like a bureucratic paper shuffle, in reality the accreditation process identifies a school's strengths and challenges as measured against standards that include an institution's planning, finances, faculty, curriculum, assessment of students' achievements, physical plant, and student support services. So sources that appear to you to be only directory entries, to me represent evidence that verifies the relative excellence of an institution. When an institution falls sort of these standards, it must address the recommendations of an accreditor's report. Losing accreditation usually means a loss of finances and students. In a way, this WP:RS situation is comparable to the use of Google Scholar data to verify a faculty member meets notability under Notability (academics). The relative scarcity of news sources for international schools, that for all practical purposes must be both in English and also online, should allow for the use of evidence a school is accredited, provides AP or IB curricula, has governmental approval, or provides pre-college testing through ACT or College Board testing. These are all evidence of notability. — Grand&#39;mere Eugene (talk) 04:45, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * All of which is great for the school, and if I was deciding which school to send my kids to in Budapest would certainly influence me, but in the context of a delete discussion on wiki does not amount to much, since these bodies are only mentioning this school as a school they accredit in long lists, and provide no other detail about it. The coverage from them does not constitute significant coverage. FOARP (talk) 20:08, 23 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep -- We almost invariably keep articles on secondary schools, which I take to include one that teaches to US grade 12. I might be happier if the article were able to indicate whether this is a school of 50 pupils (which would probably be NN) or 500+, which I would expect to have a WP article.  Peterkingiron (talk) 12:49, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * We do not invariably keep high schools, and indeed I have seen many instances of them being deleted. That might have been the practise pre-2017 but since then WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES requires that they pass WP:GNG. FOARP (talk) 20:08, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * We had an older mention of 150 students, but current claims are 230 to about 235. I've added the 230 from the school's fast facts page. Meters (talk) 04:32, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep We do invariably keep high schools eventually unless we can find no reference. WP:GNG is easy to prove for a genuine school- as we have to prove 'wikinotability' (existence of published references) not notablity as used in common speech. Every school is subject to independant inspection (fire safety not just academic) and in most countries appraisal for building control. All solid RS material. We only have to prove that the reports will exist not to present them to be read. Silly when you think about it. So we do invariably keep high schools eventually. ClemRutter (talk) 20:40, 23 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment - "Wikinotability" does not simply mean proof of existence. It means, at the very least, at least two instances of significant coverage in independent reliable sources - and these are still lacking. Simply being listed in directories or lists of accredited schools does not demonstrate notability. FOARP (talk) 11:01, 24 November 2019 (UTC)
 * Response- still keep A quick glance using the search 'International schools in Budapest list' shows that there are 14 international schools. The comparison sites are written for the American ex-pat community give a variety of links to follow. Google the name and there are 12.3 million links. The sites advertising for chaplains and teachers give detailed descriptions. They stress everything is done in English as that is the students only common language. Debating nuances of RS when talking about Central European countries is really a diversion from writing a encyclopedia.A parent gets basic facts from |International Schools Database or for a second more Brit orientated independant source look at |Good schools guide. This school doesn't make it, hardly surprising as they do an American K-12 curriculum not IGCSE or IB. | Teach Beyond comes up with some excellent photoss, and disturbing facts. ICSB is described as a missionary school, where the teachers work as volunteers or on a small $200 stipend. They are unqualified. We need the article just for this horrifying fact. ClemRutter (talk) 09:29, 25 November 2019 (UTC)
 * WP:GOOGLEHITS is an argument to avoid. FOARP (talk) 08:12, 26 November 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment – Here are two searches that may be run to find sources:
 * To find sources in Hungary (that is, on ".hu" top-level domain websites) in whatever language, you can execute this search: All of the results will be based in Hungary, even if they are in English, as is likely.
 * To find Hungarian sources, or at least, sources in any language that reference the Hungarian name of the school, you can execute this search: . Note that the Hungarian school name appears to be used rarely; even Hungarian language sites mostly use the English name. HTH, Mathglot (talk) 02:12, 26 November 2019 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 13:52, 29 November 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.