Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/International and Heritage Languages Association (IHLA)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. The result was delete. The argument to keep is based on the view that it important enough that it ought to have an article. Unfortunately all the evidence for that is presence on lists, and presence on lists is not substantial coverage. The award which does not seem important enough to show notability, certainly not in the absence of other adequate sources DGG ( talk ) 17:30, 27 February 2016 (UTC)  DGG ( talk ) 23:41, 27 February 2016 (UTC)

International and Heritage Languages Association (IHLA)

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Non-notable organization. No indications of significant independent coverage to be found. WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:11, 28 January 2016 (UTC)

This article should remain accessible through Wikipedia. It's a notable organization for minority language and culture groups in Canada. It's important to have minorities represented, even though they will not have as much coverage as other organizations. This article was helpful for me as I was searching for information on IHLA. I am a member of a similar yet fledgling organization and it's useful to see another Alberta Association's progress and changes through time, as well as their current status. Allegra002 (talk) 14:13, 29 January 2016 (UTC)Allegra002
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions.  /wiae   /tlk  18:30, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions.  /wiae   /tlk  18:30, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions.  /wiae   /tlk  18:30, 2 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete for now at best as the best found was trivial coverage at Books. SwisterTwister   talk  18:36, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete other than a single article in the Edmonton Sun that is not about the organization itself, I can't find any independent coverage of the subject in books, newspapers, or other media. Doesn't meet the notability guidelines. FuriouslySerene (talk) 18:37, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

This volunteer organization has remained in the province for over 40 years. It is documented extensively at the Provincial Archives of Alberta and references can be found on that page. https://hermis.alberta.ca/paa/Search.aspx?st=Alberta+Ethnic+Language+Teachers+ It is a flagship organization for heritage language schools that began as a result of a Western Canadian push for Multiculturalism. Although the organization is small, it is historically important. It has worked with the provincial government to develop language curricula that have entered the K-12 systems. While one wikipedian has pointed out that there is only an article in the Edmonton Sun, I would like to point out that the references included in the article do not include the Edmonton Sun. Links with other wikipedia pages were made, but were deleted by others. Notablity of the organization must be checked against three historical names AELTA, NAHLA, and IHLA. Gingerrrr1972 (talk) 00:17, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
 * The link you provided seems to be a list of publications by the organization itself, not coverage of it. I've searched the previous names and there seem to be very few results online about it (e.g., "Alberta Ethnic Language Teachers Association" returns a total of 9 Google results for me). Can you provide some links here? You might also want to read this: WP:N. Information on Wikipedia needs to be verifiable. If we don't have reliable coverage of the topic, than we can't create a separate page on it. FuriouslySerene (talk) 14:55, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Furiouslyserne, not sure if I am allowed to address you personally. But I want to say hello and oddly thank you. YOu have forced me to find a list of publications that I had not previously seen. Since I am in the process of documentation, responding to you has been oddly useful. The organization is often listed in other government documents. Here are some of the sources that you requested.Sorry for the overkill.

City of Edmonton Declares International Mother Language Day at IHLA sponsored event http://blogs.uj.ac.za/languagesmatter/2015/02/24/international-mother-language-day-declared-in-edmonton/

Sister Organizations in which this organization is listed on other organization’s websites: Alberta Association of Multicultural Education: http://aamed.org/sign-up/ Canadian association of second language teachers which also lists the Saskatchewan Organization of Heritage Languages which has a Wikipedia page http://www.caslt.org/community/community-partners-provincial_en.php http://sahla.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/NEWSLETTER-2013-WINTER.pdf The sister organization to the South, also on the CASLT page showing interaction with local politicians in their newsletter

Listed in government documents: The government of Canada search page turns up 1,480 search results: http://search-recherche.gc.ca/rGs/s_r?st=s&s5bm3ts21rch=x&num=10&st1rt=0&langs=eng&cdn=canada&hq=&q=International+heritage+language+teachers+associaion#wb-land Some of these results are: http://www.pch.gc.ca/eng/1363882822690 This one is listed under Josephine Pallard (also listed on the wikipedia page as a secretary of the prganization): http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/backgrounders/2009/2009-02-27.asp?_ga=1.190578411.1157824103.1454611364 Provincial documents: https://archive.education.alberta.ca/teachers/resources/learnlang/educators/partner/ https://archive.education.alberta.ca/media/348417/enhancesllearn.pdf (discussed on document page number 47) https://archive.education.alberta.ca/media/486258/sectione.pdf Mentioned on page 4 https://archive.education.alberta.ca/media/7049139/ldc-report.pdf listed on page D2

I honestly cannot figure out what exactly qualifies one for secondary sources, but I would believe that being listed in government sources, qualifies? (I don't mean that sarcastically, but it might read that way). I seriously want to improve the wikipedia article. First I need to know that I get to keep it here. Gingerrrr1972 (talk) 19:28, 4 February 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * I am sorry but I have looked through all of the links you have provided and none of them have any significant coverage of this organization, from what I can tell. First, when you search the Government of Canada website, you need to use quotations to make sure that the organization is actually mentioned. When you do that, you'll get approximately 5 results (not 1500). If you look at those results, you'll see there's no actual coverage of the organization. For example, coverage of Josephine Pallard is not sufficient. We need coverage of the organization, not one of its members. Other links from the province of Alberta are not "independent", which you can see is an important criteria in establishing notability: WP:GNG. I appreciate your hard work on this, but I do not think notability has been established. I know the rules are a bit convoluted, but a key question is whether or not editors can create a page with content that is reliably sourced from the materials you've presented. Unfortunately none of these sources actually cover the IHLA in any depth. FuriouslySerene (talk) 20:20, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ansh 666 07:10, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

I am a believer of stating biases so I will begin by stating that I am the creator of this page along with edmontonihla. I am also a believer in Wikipedia’s processes which are designed to keep the pages relevant. Without the work of the moderators Wikipedia would be a collection of articles about people’s pets or advertising.

From what I can gather from the moderators, this page has one main concern which is the notability of the organization. I have spent time reading the notability criteria and I believe that I can address the concerns. The notability page states: No company or organization is considered inherently notable. No organization is exempt from this requirement, no matter what kind of organization it is, including schools.[1] If the individual organization has received no or very little notice from independent sources, then it is not notable simply because other individual organizations of its type are commonly notable or merely because it exists (see "If it's not notable", below). "Notability" is not synonymous with "fame" or "importance." No matter how "important" editors may personally believe an organization to be, it should not have a stand-alone article in Wikipedia unless reliable sources independent of the organization have discussed it.

If I understand that correctly, the organization needs to be publically acknowledged. There are multiple criteria. These include depth, audience, and independent sources. While the majority of these sources are not mainstream media, these are provincial and federal documents. I would like to point out that this organization has been discussed 1) in getting material brought into the provincial archives, 2) in one of its members receiving the “Citation for Citizenship” in 2008 for her work in founding the organization, 3) multiple partnerships with other Canadian international heritage language organizations such as The Canadian Languages Association (http://www.canadianlanguages.ca/cla-regional-affiliates/), The Canadian Association of Second Language Teachers (http://www.caslt.org/community/community-partners-provincial_en.php). In the latter organization’s it also lists scholarships that the organization offers (https://caslt.org/resources/modern-lang/italian-awards-programs_en.php). 4) Although the organization is not “discussed”, it is “thanked” in multiple federal and provincial documents. Some of these are listed above. 5) The organization has been in the media, but admittedly these are usually not about the organization itself, but rather are about events that it is hosting.

Specifically addressing non-profits, the Wikipedia notability page states: Organizations are usually notable if they meet both of the following standards: 1.	The scope of their activities is national or international in scale. 2.	The organization has received significant coverage in multiple[2] reliable sources that are independent of the organization.

As pointed out previously and within the links, the volunteer organization has been listed in multiple federal and provincial government documents. I would also like to point out that the organization has historical relevance as it was formed as a direct result of the establishment of the first Ministry of Culture who created the Canadian Counsultative Council on Multiculturalism to support and promote the changing view of Canada as a “multicultural country within a bilingual framework” as opposed to the previous “bilingual/bicultural country” with only two founding nations: English and French. This article is important, not only for its work, but for its place within the history of multiculturalism in Canada. Since multiculturalism is an evolving concept within Canada and really is only 40 years old, it is essential to document its earliest organizations Gingerrrr1972 (talk) 19:59, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Ministry of Multiculturalism- sorry Gingerrrr1972 (talk) 20:09, 5 February 2016 (UTC)

Other Sources: https://books.google.ca/books?id=LXXQAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA172&lpg=PA172&dq=International+and+Heritage+Languages+association+edmonton+alberta&source=bl&ots=W7dcDKodG3&sig=cjx5T1Pztc2zriNC0SYpmEKBzJw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjd6ebvt-HKAhVI4WMKHeA6Dhg4ChDoAQgaMAA#v=onepage&q=International%20and%20Heritage%20Languages%20association%20edmonton%20alberta&f=false

http://mobinajaffer.ca/language/national-language-strategy/

https://umanitoba.ca/faculties/education/media/Babaee12.pdf Gingerrrr1972 (talk) 22:07, 5 February 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti Talk  19:36, 12 February 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment It's got a big name but it's just an Alberta linguist association, isn't it? The former names it carried were Alberta Ethnic Language Teachers Association and Northern Alberta Heritage Language Association, as mentioned in the article. The latter also has a hyperlink but the link leads to an article which doesn't mention anything about the association. --Mr. Magoo (talk) 19:51, 12 February 2016 (UTC)

Mr. Magoo, it's not a linguist association, it's a heritage language school association. So, I am sure you are aware of children who had to go to Greek school or Chinese school on Saturday. Those kinds of language schools are often called Saturday schools. In 1969, the then Prime Minister of Canada called the country a "bilingual and bicultural nation". This was done to appease French Canadians who were starting to realize that their language has less power than English. There was a huge backlash from Western Canada who argued that other groups were equally as important. Particularly vocal were Albertan Ukrainians. They fought the bicultural ad bilingual label and said that there was no way Canada was founded by two groups. As a result, Canada was declared a multicultral framework within a bilingual country. ONe of the first things that happened after that was the development of the ministry of Multiculturalism. One of that Ministry's first jobs was to form the Canadian Counsultative Council of Multiculturalism. It was a group that founded The Alberta Ethnic Language Teachers Association. The organization changed names three times and became the International and Heritage Languages Association that it is today.

The purpose of the article is document the organization's place in history. As of today the organization works on developing inter-provincally accepted language curriculum (The Western Canadian protocol for International and Heritage Languages), supporting heritage language teachers get credentialed so that they can enter the public school system and they celebrate UNESCO's mother language day. The fact that Saturday schools used to be held in church basements and are now part of a school system is the result of their work. They are often "thanked" in government documents. I never included these things within the article because they are promotional and I don't want to go against wikipedia policy.

As I understand the wikipedians' objections, it is because the organization is not adequately documented newspapers and the soul subject of articles. However, since the volunteer organization works closely with government agencies, it is mentioned there. I want to point out that wikipedia has already approved a sister organization called the Saskatchewan Organization of Heritage Languages (SOHL).

Here are two more published references which list the organizaton:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=FO2raeIR2oEC&pg=PA35&dq=International+and+Heritage+Languages+Association+history&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM64SY8evKAhVjmIMKHbfFAgMQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=International%20and%20Heritage%20Languages%20Association%20history&f=false

https://books.google.ca/books?id=3DVPCAAAQBAJ&pg=PT695&dq=International+and+Heritage+Languages+Association+history&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiM64SY8evK

2001:56A:F3AC:E300:5917:C75D:2CAC:4697 (talk) 17:09, 13 February 2016 (UTC)


 * I looked at Saskatchewan Organization for Heritage Languages and it has multiple issues. You do know that just because something hasn't been put up for deletion often simply means that it hasn't been "found" yet. I'm not voting because Wikipedia tends to be more lax when it comes to something educational like this. --Mr. Magoo (talk) 20:09, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: please can we have some comment on sourcing? Spartaz Humbug! 07:13, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 07:13, 20 February 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. An additional consideration is its just having been named a recipient of the 2016 Linguapax Award.--A12n (talk) 13:22, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

Not sure what sourcing means, Spartaz. Here is the award's website: http://www.linguapax.org/english/what-we-do/linguapax-award and http://www.linguapax.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/IHLA-Letter-of-Nomination.pdf Thank you Gingerrrr1972 (talk) 16:09, 22 February 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.