Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iranshenasi


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. -- Cirt (talk) 00:13, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Iranshenasi

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Academic journal of unclear notability. Apparently not indexed anywhere. The only source available is an extremely (overly?) laudatory item in the Encyclopaedia Iranica. (There has been an inconclusive discussion about the reliability of this source here. There is also a reference to an article in the Times Literary Supplement, but according to its title that is a general article on Iranian studies and as I have no access to that source, I cannot verify that this journal is mentioned in more depth than just in passing. The editor apparently is notable, but notability is not inherited. The article lists a few "sample citations", but just a few citations here and there to material published in this journal rather underscores the general lack of notability, I think. Does not meet WP:GNG or even WP:Notability (academic journals). Crusio (talk) 12:38, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions.  -- Crusio (talk) 12:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions.  -- Crusio (talk) 12:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions.  -- Crusio (talk) 12:43, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

A) The journal has plenty of citations in google books and google scholar. .  The journal is in Persian so we should not expect 1000s of citations.  But hundreds of citations in English google books/google scholar in a field that is not very big is important.  It is very notable in the Persian speaking world.  I just kept citations to some major university professors such as: and etc.
 * keep per WP:RS (number of scholarly citations as well as reliability of authors who have referenced its)
 * John Walbrdige
 * Abbas Milani
 * Franklin Lewis
 * Ali Asghar Seyyed Gohrab []
 * Leonard Lewisohn

B)
 * The Encyclopaedia Iranica is kown as a reliable source which is published by Columbia University.. Its citations are too many in the scholarly journals and books:  (browse after the first page) .  Over 20000+ combined in these.

Iranica has over 1200+ writers some of them include:[ http://www.iranica.com/pages/consulting]
 * Richard Frye articles in Iranica


 * Clifford Edmund Bosworth who is an Editor of Encyclopaedia of Islam and some of his articles in Iranica

Some of his articles in Iranica:
 * P. Oktor Skjærvø (Distinguished Professor of Harvard University)


 * Victor Mair some of his articles in Iranica:

and I can list many more, but the above is sufficient.
 * Yuri_Bregel Some of his articles in Iranica: ]

Some of his articles in Iranica:
 * Nicholas Sims-Williams

The above is a short list of 7 prominent scholars out of the many (authors who easily have more than 100+ publications in scholarly journals and books). It is meant to be a sample.

C) The article in Iranica is written by a Professor of Stanford with an impressive resume:.

D)

The journal is indexed in most university libraries that have Near Eastern programs. I'll just give three examples (Harvard, University of Chicago, and University of Columbia): (Columbia) (University of Chicago) (Harvard). So it is indexed in reliable libraries. Most Persian journals in or outside Afghanistan, Iran, Tajikistan are yet not online. Also a very reliable Middle Estern Studies index is OACIS for the Middle East and it has the journal in its index:

E) The article in Iranica is written by a Stanford University Professor Abbas Milani and Iranica is edited by Professor. Ehsan Yarshater of Columbia University.  --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 17:48, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

F) As per Notability. Considering that the journal is Persian and devoted to an area that is small(Iranian studies), it is cited mainly by Persian sources.  However sufficient English sources. These two criterions are met: "The journal is frequently cited by other reliable sources"  "The journal is frequently cited by other reliable sources." Frequently should be taken in terms of the field itself (which is a small field of Iranian studies with no more than 50-100 active scholars in the West).   --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 01:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * KEEP: the article is just stub, like hundred thousands of other articles. The provided source is reliable, and nothing is mentioned in Wikipedia policies about the minimum number of needed references per article.--Aliwiki (talk) 21:31, 21 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That's correct, but Wikipedia's guidelines do mention notability... And WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not the storngest argument at AfD. --Crusio (talk) 21:54, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I doubt you understood what AliWiki said as your misinterpreting what he states, since what you pointed in WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is not related at all to what he said. He said the provided source is reliable (Iranica) and there is no wikipedia policy on the "mininum number of reliable sources". However, the number of indepedent citations by university scholar for Iranshenasi journal is not a few. There are many in google books, google scholar and Iranica. Also the field of Iranian studies is not huge, so you should not expect thousands of English citations to a Persian journal (which few English speakers can read in the first place). WP:notability is established by Iranica and Stanford Professor: ""Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media, and in any language. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability. ".    There are sufficient number of secondary sources (in Persian but also in English) referencing the journal from very notable professors of Iranian studies. As per Notability. Considering that the journal is Persian and devoted to an area that is small(Iranian studies), it is cited mainly by Persian sources. However sufficient English sources reference it, despite being a Persian journal (only few scholars in the West know the language and work in Iranian studies). Also furthermore, these two criterions are met: "The journal is considered by reliable sources to be influential in its subject area." (Example is the books that have been cited and Iranica). "The journal is frequently cited by other reliable sources." It is cited frequently in Persian sources, however in English sources even, frequently should be taken in terms of the field itself (which is a small field of Iranian studies with no more than 50-100 active scholars in the West). --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 01:24, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * comment Here are approximately 30 more citations for the journal . --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 01:34, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Further Comment The associate editors of the journal are professors of NYU and Chicago university. "Three members of Iran Nameh’s Advisory Board joined Iranshenasi: Peter Chelkowski, Roger Savory, and Zabihollah Safa. They were joined by three other distinguished scholars: Djalal Khaleghi Motlagh, Heshmat Moayyad, and Ehsan Yarshater."  Note Chelkowski is an NYU Professor .  Heshmat Moayyad is a Professor of University of Chicago .  I am trying to assume good faith here, but the nominator basically is not following any guidelines.  He thinks that he can find a Persian journal in English online indexes, when majority of Persian journals are not indexed online. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 01:44, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Also a very reliable Middle Estern Studies index is OACIS and it has the journal in its index: --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 02:50, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep The E.Iranica article on the journal is fully sufficient as a RS, and even better documentation of notability than we are usually able to find for academic journals.    DGG ( talk ) 03:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep; per WP:RS and the reliability of both Iranshenasi and Iranica. Armaiti (talk) 03:54, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * CommentJust to add to your comment.  Most members of Wiki Project Iran know Persian and can do a search for the Iranshenasi magazine.  The scholars who write it for it are very elite, many of them have Wesern university positions.  Of course, it has sufficient English citations as well, so that is why I did not yet bother in mentioning the Persian citations.  --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 05:27, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * While the journal is notable, the sources talking of it are full of puffery and other self-congratulatory material. I mean the Iranica article talks about how remarkable it is that the editor actually does the job expected of an editor."A remarkable aspect of Iranshenasi has always been the care that the editor, Jalal Matini, gives to ensuring that articles are free from errors of fact or of typesetting. He also regularly consults with the journal’s advisors, as well as scholars who are not members of the advisory board, about the merits of articles that the magazine receives and that fall outside his own scholarly purview." To find a passage like this in an encyclopedia pretty much tells you the encyclopedia is about as biased as it gets. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 06:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * To the user Headbomb: the word "remarkable" does not mean exactly what one hears for example when entering a club. The word "Remarkable" is an encylopaedic word (check your OED) and can be used in scholarly publication. All reputable and specialized encyclopedias may use this word because they know what they mean. This may not help you to understand the point; but think of the word "remark". That said, the word "remarkable" and similar ones are not to be used in "wikipedia"; because 99.99% of users of wikipedia are non-scholars and due to un-signed feature of wikipedia. Iranica, being THE most reliable source on Iranic studies is a journal with signed articles, written and used by scholars. The feature "signature at the end of article" is another the key point here that you missed. Xashaiar (talk) 13:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC)


 * I won't defend Iranica, but the academic publishing industry and information science sector in Iran has historically been a long way behind modern expectations. What would be a barely notable journal if it was in the US can be a well respected journal when it comes from parts of the world which have fewer well run journals. John Vandenberg (chat) 09:38, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * @Headbomb: About the typesetting part, you have to remember the works were actually published it via a type-writer not a modern word processor.  Also a Persian word processor with spell check did not exist until recently.  Usually what happens in this case is: a) Authors have to type/word process their work and send to the editor as a hardcopy.  B) The editor has to type it or get someone else to retype it (potential for mistake).  Furthermore, imagine writing 400 pages of a journal article without a wordprocessor.
 * @John Vandberg: Actually it is well known journal among oriental Iranologist.  I would say the materials are actually of higher quality/more indepth and the scholars that write for it (both Oriental Iranologist who know Persian and also Iranian/Afghan/Tajik scholars associated mainly with Western Universities), are well known.  The fact is that the journal is in Persian and just has English summaries.  So that is why information on it cannot be found as readily considering the limited number of English speakers who speak Persian and work in Iranology (for example one should not compare it to the IEEE or something).  The editor is over 80+ years old and he is not internet savy person (One of my friend called for his email and he does not use the internet).  However, the journal is in every major university library with a serious Near Eastern program.  Also your comment is correct that historically, Persian journals have lacked behind Western journals, but journals like Iranshenasi have closed the grap.  So in a way, it is somewhat a pioneer in the type of scholarship that is (or should be( accepted.  And your comment is right that the number of running journals in Iran for example would be at best 1% of say the USA, so it becomes somewhat more noticeable.  -Khodabandeh14 (talk) 14:19, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

One can use google books and scholar to find more citation by checking for "Iran Shenasi"/"Iranshenasi"/"Iran Shinasi"/"IranShinasi" and noting the volume number (from 1989).--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 14:23, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - useful stub, helpful for checking reliability and potential bias of references. Notability is established Alex Bakharev (talk) 06:51, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. One should be careful; Iranshenasi means Iranian studies, and the sources are in conflict about such things as founding dates.  Abductive  (reasoning) 06:58, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * comment: Yes, but as a journal between 1989 to today, there is only one journal with such a title.  You can check the volume numbers also if you have doubt.--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 13:34, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep I would like more sources, but I have also found plenty of sources that referance this work.Slatersteven (talk) 12:12, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Some Further Comments' I think some background is necessary here so the Iranica article is read in its context.  The context:
 * A) On spell checks: The journal is not typed via a wordprocessor but with a typewriter (at least as far as I know till recently). Word Processors for Persian language with a spell check is a fairly recent phenomenon (much after the journal came about).  Before the era of modern word processors, one can expect many typos in journals, specially ones that the material had to be retyped via a typewriter.  This has always been a problem with Persian journals which were typed (not by the editor usually) via type-writer.. So that is why it is pointed out.
 * B) Despite the fact that the journal is in Persian, it is somewhat a pioneer in terms of the quality of the material it publishes and also its editorial staff. So it is in this context that the Iranica articles might at first seem "self-applauding" for the journal.  It calls it a reliable journal, since it is cited by scholars around the world.  The number of journals in Persian for example would not be 1% of the number of journals in the USA in English.  So the journal stands out in this context.  If it was an English journal, it would not standout as it would just be another journal.
 * C) We should not expect thousands of English sources referencing the journal, since it is in Persian language covering a small field Iranian studies.  However, the number of citations by well known authors and writers makes it reliable.  Example:
 * John Walbridge, "The leaven of the ancients: Suhrawardī and the heritage of the Greeks", SUNY Press, 2000. pg 232.
 * Leonard Lewisohn, David Morgan, "The Heritage of Sufism: Late classical Persianate Sufism (1501-1750)" (Vol.3), Oneworld, 1999. pg 122
 * Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West, Oneworld Publications, 2000
 * Heshmat Moayyad, Franklin Lewis, "The Colossal Elephant and his spiritual feats: Shaykh Ahmad-e Jâm : the life and legend of a popular Sufi saint of 12th century Iran",Mazda Publishers, 2004.
 * Francois De Blois, "Persian Literature - A Biobibliographical Survey: Volume V Poetry of the Pre-Mongol Period", RoutledgeCurzon, 2004.
 * Reza Pourjavady, Sabine Schmidtke, "A Jewish philosopher of Baghdad: 'Izz al-Dawla Ibn Kammūna (d. 683/1284) and his writings", BRILL, 2006. pg 7.
 * Shafique N. Virani, "The Ismailis in the Middle Ages: a history of survival, a search for salvation", Oxford University Press US, 2007. pg 204.
 * Joyce Moss, "Middle Eastern literatures and their times", Thomson Gale, 2004. pg 274
 * Charles Peter Melville, "Safavid Persia: the history and politics of an Islamic society", I.B. Tauris, 1996. pg 76.
 * Meir Litvak, "Shi'i Scholars of Nineteenth-Century Iraq: The 'Ulama' of Najaf and Karbala", Cambridge University Press, 2002. pg 242.
 * Ali Asghar Seyed-Gohrab, "Layli and Majnun: Love, Madness and Mystic Longing",Brill Studies in Middle Eastern literature, Jun 2003.
 * Robert Hillenbrand, "Shahnama: the visual language of the Persian book of kings",Volume 2 of Visual Arts Research Institute Edinburgh,Ashgate Publishing, Ltd., 2004. pg 18.
 * Franklin Lewis, Farzin Yazdanfar, "In a voice of their own: a collection of stories by Iranian women written since the Revolution of 1979", Mazda Publishers, 1996. pg xxx, xxxi, xlviii
 * Abbas Milani, "Eminent Persians: the men and women who made modern Iran, 1941-1979: in two volumes", Syracuse University Press, 2008.
 * Wilferd Madelung, Farhad Daftary, Josef W. Meri, "Wilferd Madelung, Farhad Daftary, Josef W. Meri", I.B.Tauris, 2003. pg 25.
 * Ekmeleddin İhsanoğlu, "Culture and learning in Islam", UNESCO, 2003.
 * Vesta Sarkhosh Curtis, Sarah Stewart, "Birth of the Persian Empire", I.B.Tauris, 2005. pg 141.
 * Comment Concerning the number of libraries carrying this journal: according to WorldCat, Iranshenazi is in 30 (thirty) libraries in the US. Concerning the "publishing industry and information science sector in Iran", this journal is published by the Keyan Foundation, located in Bethesda, MD. --Crusio (talk) 16:00, 22 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I am not sure if World Cat is exhaustive, but the libraries that carry it usually have a Persian studies program. Even 30 or so in the USA is a large number considering the journal is in the Persian language.  It makes no sense for universities that do not have an Iranian studies program to subscribe to it.   The major universities: Harvard, Princeton, Columbia, NYU, Stanford, Yale, Ohio, Chicago, UCLA and etc. that have a reputable Middle Eastern programs, and more specifically a Persian studies program, do carry it.  Again it makes no sense for a University that does not have a Persian program to subscribe to a Persian language journal.   --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 16:07, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep per User:Khodabandeh14. Clearly a notable journal. Offliner (talk) 00:21, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep for obvious reasons. Xashaiar (talk) 13:13, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * (weak) keep appears to be just notable enough, especially with an Encyclopedia Iranica article. &mdash;innotata 20:15, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.