Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Iron Projects


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. 02:45, 18 October 2013 (UTC)

Iron Projects

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Article is written like an advertisement, but more importantly, notability is not established. Most references lead to discussion forum posts. No significant external coverage from reliable sources as far as I can tell. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

author response(please consider these facts) (sorry if this is in the wrong place)

Seeking clarification to which parts you think are written "as an advertisement"? Article contains only referenced facts of events and gigs (which their career was built around). it doesn't contain external links to song downloads and does not advertise any future work as the band has retired from performing.

The "discussion forum posts" referenced are established as reputable on the wiki page australian_hip_hop. The exact paragraph link is here: Ozhiphop.com Awards. One must consider the timeline of the late 90's, even reputable websites began as forum or IRC based clients. The website is now "the Annual Australian Hiphop Awards" and has been running for close to two decades.

3 of the sources are from Australian Government Websites that host a film that details the story and involvement of 2 of the band members.

source in Brimbank Leader newspaper(references online version of hard-copy newspaper) establishes 1 band members notability as an artist and features full photo.

further: justification using wikis standards for bands and ensembles.

1. Has been the subject of multiple, non-trivial, published works appearing in sources that are reliable, not self-published, and are independent from the musician or ensemble itself. all sources are 100% independent of the artists

This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, online versions of print media, and television documentaries except for the following:

Any reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician or ensemble talks about themselves, and all advertising that mentions the musician or ensemble, including manufacturers' advertising.all sources are 100% independent of the artists

Works consisting merely of trivial coverage, such as articles that simply report performance dates, release information or track listings, or the publications of contact and booking details in directories. all gig references also have attendee feedback, are independent of the Artist and the reference: "Double or Nothing III." In The Mix Magazine. In The Mix. 13 Sep. 2006. Web 30 Sep. 2013.  is an online magazine review of a performance while on inter-state tour.

Articles in a school or university newspaper (or similar), in most cases. Brimbank Leader is a legitimate hard-copy newspaper that re-enforces one members notability.

9.Has won or placed in a major music competition '''once reputability of ozhiphop.com is established (as above) the legitimacy of the bands runner-up "best live act in Australia 2005" meets this criteria.

10. Has performed music for a work of media that is notable, e.g., a theme for a network television show, performance in a television show or notable film, inclusion on a notable compilation album, etc. (But if this is the only claim, it is probably more appropriate to have a mention in the main article and redirect to that article. Read WP:BLP1E and WP:BIO1E for further clarifications) '''2 of the band members have a documentary-style video hosted on an Australian Government websites "Culture Victoria" outlining their music.

reference: "The Art of Rhyme." Culture Victoria. Arts Victoria and M Mifsud. 4 Apr. 2010. Web 30 Sep. 2013. 

The above reference in addition the the Brimbank Leader newspaper article also helps attribute to: 6. Is an ensemble which contains two or more independently notable musicians, or is a musician who has been a reasonably-prominent member of two or more independently notable ensembles.[note 6] This should be adapted appropriately for musical genre; for example, having performed two lead roles at major opera houses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sketcher man (talk • contribs) 02:28, 11 October 2013‎ (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:45, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:45, 11 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Hello! I'm jumping way to the bottom to answer your questions.  I've reformatted your sub-section for clarity, so that there aren't three main areas to edit in.  That can get messy.  I hope that doesn't offend.  I will, however, preface this response by saying two things: 1) I'm not saying that they're not competent or awesome.  I've no agenda, as I've never heard of them.  2) I will not be countering each and every point you've made, because that will take us down multiple branching avenues that will distract us from the bigger issues.


 * "Advertisement" covers a lot of ground, including promotional language and peacock terms. I was specifically referring to phrases such as the following, which are written in non-encyclopedic tone, in such a fashion that it comes off as a promo puff piece. "You'd be excused for thinking some of their accents stray, ever so slightly, from the regular Australian drawl, this contributes to the rawness that is the sound of their authentic street anthems." "They have often been referred to as a significant influence..." "...their trademark tongue in cheek humour".  Articles must be written in a neutral point of view and without original research.  Any discussion about their "rawness" and "authentic(ity)" needs to come from external reliable sources.  Was a Rolling Stone correspondent so amazed by a live Iron Projects performance that he memorialized it in print?  "...their disparate accents convey rawness and authenticity!"


 * But as I said, a major issue with the article is that notability of the subject is not clearly established. Firstly, we should know in the article lead what the group is known for.  Look at the article on Britney Spears, or perhaps more realistically, look at the article on Takeru Kobayashi. (Picked randomly as someone I happened to think of after thinking of Britney Spears.)  Two sentences in his lead, but you know right off the bat that he holds four Guinness records.  That's what makes him notable.  In contrast, there is no proper article lead at Iron Projects.  And apart from learning that they are suburban rappers, there are unreferenced (and subjective) claims that Iron Projects are influential, and we don't learn until somewhere in the middle of the third paragraph that they were runners-up for a "revered" award. (More puffery).  This, runner-up-ship, however, may be a valid argument for inclusion, though it seems more intuitive that they be mentioned in a list of runners-up in an article about the OZ awards, than have their own article.  Did they produce albums?  No.  Did they get air play?  I dunno.  Any videos?  Beats me.


 * SOURCES: Ozhiphop.com may be the biggest hiphop site in Australia, (which is something I'm assuming, because the link you provided has no sources to corroborate that claim), but that doesn't mean the discussion forum is a reliable source. A reliable source has (for example) some sort of editorial oversight that governs content, i.e., they fact check, they vet sources, etc.  That is as true of newspapers from 1880 as for reliable sources from the 1990s.  You can't argue that because it was the 1990s, journalistic standards on the internet was unheard of.  As I said, I can't go through every single point with you.  If you want the article to survive, you're going to have to work hard to establish notability.  All the excessive BOLD text and stuff we can take care of.  Prove that this crew is notable and that we're not just using Wikipedia as an extension of MySpace and I'll be happy to work with you.  But keep in mind that it's not about you and me, it's about what the community decides as a whole.  Cyphoidbomb (talk) 03:59, 11 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete No real evidence that notability is established here. Nick-D (talk) 09:43, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

author response
Firstly, thank you for any adjustments made,i'm more than happy to have parts removed or reformatted if you are willing to become involved. Please review the article as I have attempted to address many of the articles shortcomings, I have undertaken the changes i outlined following: i will adjust the "lead" and remove any unsubstantiated descriptions. as a fan and attendee of their shows i believe their live show is what makes them notable, but do qualify on at least 1 of the possible grounds and had attempted to make the article able to qualify for as many grounds for notability as possible. Also i think i got carried away with the "biography"

I do believe it is worth re-evaluating the "discussion forum" as you label it and consider the following short points:
 * is it possible that some of the references [[and relevant claims] of posts by non-admin members be removed?
 * the site was good enough to be included on the Australian_hip_hop wiki, i didn't put it there, but even unreferenced it must have been considered to be factual enough after a debate like we are engaging in right now.
 * as the competition the band won was posted on a locked forum by the admin at the time, the very same annual awards are now hosted on the home page of what has grown to become a very professional website and an authority on the subject.

i have compiled a lost of existing wiki pages that references the www.ozhiphop.com website and/or their annual awards: (to help verify credibility of all other sources in addition to ozhiphop.com)

Distant_Sense_of_Random_Menace

Mind_over_Matter_(band)

The_Calling_(Hilltop_Hoods_album)

DJ_Bonez

Matty_B

Brothers_Stoney

 is a mainstream fm radio station and quotes ozhiphop here with inherent credibility.

 confirms ww.ozhiphop.com is 21 years old.

 national news article about The_Tongue feferences an interview with www.ozhiphop.com

Also at  the winner of a foxtel pay tv channel "Channel V" competition had his winning single advertised as for digital download at the official Channel V website and on ozhiphop.com, has to give it some credibility?

Here is the professional business profile of a passed ozhiphop.com awards manager 

inthemix.com.au is a reference i have used a few times, other wiki pages that reference it are:

MTV_Australia

Jet_(band)

DJ_Ajax

Stereosonic

one of sites a reference a couple time "aahh.com" is also referenced in wiki articles

Seth_Sentry

Illy_(rapper)

Brad_Strut

The_Chase_(Illy_album)

Briggs_(rapper)

Dialectrix

Vents_(musician)

Falling_and_Flying

Obese_Records

9.Has won or placed in a major music competition

This was a major, and is even bigger now, competition all artists of notability are entered into  feel free to browse and research the artists who win them currently, the annual awards are the one and only competition for this genre of music which is a small and growing music industry. The band which they 'placed' among were gold and platinum album artists at the time.
 * this grounds to establish notability is different from point 8 which is a major music award ie ARIA by something like a corporate governance.

most importantly 2 of the artists made an autobiographical video [about music] for a department of the Australian Government [which is referenced] how can that be dismissed as not "real evidence"? the video has also been adapted as a teaching resource by ACMI which is basically a huge museum.


 * the reference to the magazine  is an interview by artist "hykoo" who is signed to a record label and has released multiple albums and specifically says the band was an influence for him and his music.

thank you again for even reading all this, but if you're interested in helping cutting this down to what it needs to be to be less ambiguous, please do, it'd be a shame for this article to be removed just because many (but not all) references are from a legitimate authority on the subject that used a discussion forum layout in entirety in the earlier days of the internet.

youtube videos of band and/or members
please note: the band are notable for their live shows and werent active on youtube

 (7 year old video of band on stage)

 (upokalypz first freestyle battle)

 (upokalypz freestyle battle)

 (HEADLINE PROMO 2vs2 freestyle battle with Upokalypz)

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0ZCSPqeihg> (Hoodlum freestyle battle)

(Upokalypz has a few more freestyle battle videos on youtube than i have listed)

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K65NkcwkkLg> (Pabstrakt and Upokalyps feature on an Emerald Sun PROMO)

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzeXKwN9-X0> (Music Video For Eduaz ft Upokalypz - se tu (25,000) views (warning: in Chilean)

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-Cif6rvpMQ> (An example of what one reviewer called "set the lighthearted mood with a bit of a dancing routine, which was fairly entertaining." you should recognise Upokalypz by now with the bald head)

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50k5ssXzaGo> (360 - So Fake, produced by pabstrakt and referenced in article 256,000 views)

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX5AsbEkdRk> (360 - so Fake uploaded again this one with 136,000 views)

<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeJDHN12aO8> (360 ft Oso - Take me for granted 51,000 views)

<http://www.thehothits.com/video/phrase/here-now/12908> (Upokalypz and Jhay V close ups at (2:32) and (2:44)

<http://a4.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/116/a295d3161d7f48c6b514e6e7f4789fc3/l.jpg> (Upoklayps and Pabstrakt with Phrase from above video clip and Illy at the recording studio)

<http://a3.ec-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/117/d8b095ec458c417aafaae78a40c24a7b/l.jpg> (Oso, Upokalpyz, Hoodlum and Pabstrakt + other with Daniel Merriweather (back 3rd from left))

Please consider all available information i have presented before dismissing this article, thank you.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Sketcher man (talk • contribs) 18:46, 11 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Please don't spam your YouTube videos here - Wikipedia is not a free video hosting service, and YouTube is more often than not both an unreliable source and a copyright violation to the extent that trying to use it to prove notability is extremely difficult. Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   11:10, 15 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete. Reading WP:BAND, this group does not seem to posses the required notability for inclusion.  Extensive social media coverage does not meet the broad coverage requirement, nor do they seem to be any different from many other unsigned locally popular groups.  EricSerge (talk) 21:09, 13 October 2013 (UTC)


 * eric i dont think you understand the definition of "social media" there are 18 references used from non-discussion-board posts. That's legitimate news, government department and independent culture and music magazine business websites, just because its a website and not a book does not make it social media or unreliable by default. i outlined above numerous "famous" groups referencing these same very online businesses you have labelled "social media"

if you read the article in its entirety they ARE different from other unsigned acts by coming 2nd for BEST LIVE ACT in the country and touring inter-state and being an influence on now-popular artists, despite never recording songs.

One Ozhiphop.com reviewer stated "Another moody Pabstrakt beat compliments the topic perfectly" [6] does that not say he has a reputation?

i dont intend to argue every single point but i feel that people are dismissing things without properly understanding them and that is an injustice.

please look at ACMI this is the museum that uses the story by 2 of the band members as a teaching resource, I dont see any other locally popular groups members being chosen to have a lesson planned about a video made by and about them and hosted by a government museum.

if you dont have time to consider everything properly and dont want to help, let someone with a valid opinion on the topic evaluate it, so far all votes to delete are based on misunderstanding of facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sketcher man (talk • contribs) 07:19, 14 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Main man, I've gone through tremendous pains to sift through the references on the Iron Projects article and explain on your talk page, in a casual, friendly, and SUPER-DETAILED manner, why those references FAIL to establish Iron Projects' notability. This isn't a witchhunt, it's not a crusade against you or the content you are attempting so strongly to fight for, this doesn't mean that we as individuals aren't capable of understanding Iron Projects as a group, rather that you have not met the general notability guideline, or that you are not using reliable sources or that you are inserting original research.  There is not ONE SINGLE SOURCE in that article that says definitively, "Iron Projects" is notable.  You seem to want to throw a handful of clouds at the wall so you can tell us what looks like an elephant. "These reference says they performed here, here and here.  This guy says that he performed with Iron Projects a dozen times.  This reference says that they didn't exactly WIN a rap battle but maybe they placed second or third or were runners up, depending on how we personally interpret the results.  Here are a dozen YouTube videos that you need to sift through to figure out how Iron Projects are notable.  Here's a YouTube video where the guys have close-ups? (OMG really?) This is a guy who used to be in Iron Projects.  Since he now has a record contract, Iron Projects must be notable."  No.  Find one news article that talks about how dope these guys are.


 * And this is the only time I'm going to explain this point to you, since you seem to be hung up here: If I am a car mechanic, and I make a free video for my state government office about the importance of cars or carburetors, that endeavor doesn't mean that all of a sudden I have earned legitimacy as a notable car mechanic, or that suddenly I'm a notable automobile engineer. My notability as a mechanic or engineer needs to be independently reported by reliable sources.  Someone unrelated, has to say, "Cyphoidbomb's re-defining of head gaskets was pivotal, as his new polymer design improved motor reliability 300% and reduced national fuel expenditures and repairs by 26%."  Holy shit, all of a sudden, I am significant!  But if an article about me says, "Cyphoidbomb fixed some cars.  He installed a new exhaust manifold on one of Jay Leno's cars.  He inspired Sigourney Weaver to change her oil every 3000 miles, and he's got an open slot for a smog check this Friday at 10:30am," dear god, how the hell am I notable?  I'm not!


 * Your numerous replies to my points on your talk page demonstrate that you are reluctant to understand what I am trying to impart to you. If you want to memorialize this group in your preferred manner, I'd recommend that you open up the edit window tomorrow, copy the entire article, then go to Wikia.com and paste your Iron Projects article there.  There it will avoid any kind of scrutiny.  I hate to dismiss you like this because I can tell you're a good dude, but you are being so insistent upon forcing Iron Projects that you are blinded to experienced editors' explanations for why the subjects, as presented, do not yet warrant an article.  Good luck, m'man!  Sorry it did not work out here. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 08:31, 14 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete Some of this is getting a bit tl;dr, but I did my best to look at the salient points and as Cyphoidbomb eloquently explains, the sources do nothing more than demonstrate existence, and there's no evidence of notability. -- K orr u ski Talk 09:50, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete - I started wading through this AfD and it's wading through tar, but fundamentally the article is full of desperate cries for attention such as minor FM radio appearances, cites to Facebook (a red flag if ever there was one), forum posts (likewise), Discogs (not actually a reliable source) or actual reliable sources (eg: Culture Victoria) that don't mention the subject. If somebody can provide a reference in Billboard or Rolling Stone that verifies unquestionably that the group has been signed to a major label and released charting albums and singles, I'll change my mind - but I can't see it happening. Ritchie333  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(talk)  <sup style="color:#7F007F;">(cont)   11:07, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Sorry for contributing to the tar! I definitely could have been a little less verbose.  My heart was in the right place, though.   Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:45, 15 October 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.