Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Islam and Terrorism: What the Quran Really Teaches About Christianity, Violence and the Goals of the Islamic Jihad (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was  d elete. - Mailer Diablo 17:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Islam and Terrorism: What the Quran Really Teaches About Christianity, Violence and the Goals of the Islamic Jihad (2nd nomination)
AfDs for this article: 
 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Even after the first afd, nothing has been inserted into the article that demonstrates any notability. A google search of the title returns 83 unique pages, many of them being personal blogs. Trulyequal 01:15, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Islam-related deletions.   — Sef rin gle Talk 01:34, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Should have been deleted last time around, I don't know how it was decided there was "no consensus." Article doesn't assert notability of book at all. Should be eligible for speedy per A7. faithless   (speak)  02:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete unless something other than adspam content is added. Alba 04:30, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, non-notable. Also not the best thing to have an article on when we don't have much information to back up why we have an article on it. It's written fairly neutrally, but the subject itself is a bit inflammatory. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 04:53, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: Here is the first AfD. I don't know why it's not shown above. Hers fold  (t/a/c) 04:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * The code was missing. I've added it and the display is now correct. → AA (talk) — 21:36, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete as "Amazon.com Sales Rank: #17,746 in Books" and zero Google news archive hits.  Citi Cat   ♫ 05:27, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Em. I guess 17,000 on the Amazon rank isn’t so bad as all that, especially for a book five years old. With millions of book titles in the inventory, this means it’s in the top 1% of Amazon sales. I bet there’re more than a few authors who’d kill to be listed so high. And that Wikipedia has many book articles titles places considerable lower. And of course you’re not going to find much mention of a five year old book on google news. It didn't even exist then.
 * In fact I just clicked on four random books from the wiki category: Cate!gory:2002 books – and not one of them was ranked anywhere near this book:
 * High Score!: The Illustrated History of Electronic Games # 602.322
 * Hobo (book) # 920,501
 * High and Mighty (book) # 343,383
 * Harmful to Minors #205,863


 * Heres a book by Herman Melville Mardi, and a Voyage Thither – coming in at a whooping #3,469,482. - and not a mention on google news. I hope we won’t have to start to delete Herman Melville books on that account. Rune X2 15:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * 1% is low. Since the million titles not in the top percentile sale only a few copies or not at all, it doesn't mean it sells sucessfully. See the long tail for further explanation of this economic concept. Anyway encyclopedic notabiltiy is not established by top sales lists, I doubt that Analytica Prioraby Alexander of Aphrodisias is much of a best seller.--Victor falk 22:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Um, the Melville book may just sneak by under Notability (books) #5 - "The book's author is so historically significant that any of his or her written works may be considered notable". Any thoughts on which criteria this book passes, other than WP:OTHERSTUFF which you keep using?  Citi Cat   ♫ 02:51, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Strong keep why would you want to delete a book article, unless you were trying to censor its content. The book is quite notable and has been feartured on numerous radio shows--CltFn 12:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Assume good faith unless there is convincing evidence to the contrary, please. If you can find reliable sources regarding such media coverage, then by all means produce them. Tarc 14:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Non notable book. ff m  12:59, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * There has been massive change in the accepted notability of books. I kind of miss the old days when we could have most every book... but, it's pretty hard to write balanced articles with so few secondary sources. gren グレン 09:41, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete as a complete failure of WP:N. If CltFn or others can provide sources for the "numerous radio shows" assertion, then we can see if it is notable. Tarc 14:38, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep : If you want to start the like of an electronic wiki book burning, lets start with thousands of wiki articles on less controversial books, to avoid any accusations of being political or ideological motivated. For instance the four book I listed above Rune X2 15:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Just because other non-notable books have articles is no reason that this one shouldn't be deleted. I can't speak for the others, but (after a cursory glance) I'd probably argue Delete for the books you mentioned as well. Why don't you nominate them? faithless   (speak)  15:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I know that argument, and I've heard it many times before. But I don't buy it, because it's always the controversial articles which are being deleted, leading to an obvious suspicion that the driving force is something entirely different than having non-notable articles removed.


 * Anyway I don't nominate the other articles, from the same reasons I don't agree this article should be deleted, because I myself have an interest in obscure Victorian literature which leads me to find interesting articles on books which most people would find completely non-noteable and which I'm sure lists considerable lower on Amazon than this book. Which actually might not even be at sale there and sure as hell have never been mentioned on google news. Another person might easily have other obscure interests and find this book interesting, even when you or the other editors in here find it non-noteable. You throw around this "notable" like it could scientifically measured, but "noteability" depends entirely on your own interests and is anything but unbiased.
 * Besides I hate dead ends on Wikipedia. And since I can't imagine you'd want the article on the author deleted, then a mention on books by the author on that page would have to be de-linked. Thirdly I think the book is noteable enough, on account of the author being notable - the same way I think "Mardi, and a Voyage Thither" by Herman Melville is notableable because of its author. Rune X2 17:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment You may have a point, that it's only the controversial nature of this book that has led to it being nominated here. I don't know, you'd have to ask the nominator. However, that's irrelevant. WP has guidelines and policies that must be adhered to. Regardless if this article is interesting or useful, the subject does not pass Wikipedia's (not mine or the other editor's) guidelines as to what is notable and what isn't. Furthermore, I fail to see how the author of the book is notable. faithless   (speak)  18:29, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment You fail to see how a widely discussed and published author is notable, but a cursory look on your page revels that you yourself have created articles ranging from one on an obscure American soccer player, over some rock band with apparently no known cds to its name to an even more obscure fan of a little known American football team. But if that is your opinion then the honest thing would be to start with trying to get the article on the author removed - and then his books afterwards. Instead of chipping away at the corners and making the original author entry less usefull. And shouldn't we leave it at noting that it doesn't pass your guidelines as to what is notable and what isn't, while it does pass other editors notion of what is noteable. Rune X2 18:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Whether you agree with it or not, coaches of national soccer teams are notable, as are people and bands who have received news coverage from reliable and independent sources. If You feel strongly about it, nominate the articles I've written for deletion. Meanwhile, try to stay on topic and not come up with petty attacks because someone disagrees with you. Widely discussed and published? You mean aside from his own books and website? Oh, and the Jets are anything but a "little known American football team." That's laughable. Stop taking this so personally. faithless   (speak)  20:35, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And actually, my two worst articles were the first two I created, before I really understood Wikipedia, on two actresses who really aren't very notable. If you'd like, feel free to nominate those, I'm sure you'd win. ;) faithless   (speak)  20:55, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No I wouldn't "win" - perhaps we'd both lose. Because, who knows, there may very well be people out there who are interested in little known actresses or everything to do with fans of American football teams or whatever - and Wikipedia loses nothing by also providing information for these people. Personally I think all to do with American football completely un-noteable, but wouldn't presume to list them all for deletion on account of my own interests.


 * Anyhow, no harm done. I guess I'll just post the article on some of the other language wikis. Already I find the German wiki often to be of a better quality than the English and often have article not found in English. And since I'm a fan of plurality of languages this is fine by me. Rune X2 16:24, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Oh well, so much for WP:BEANS :-) -- B figura (talk) 21:37, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete. Non-notable book. CRocka05 16:58, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete No notability asserted. Probably because there don't seem to be any reliable independent sources disscussing the book. Fails WP:V B figura  (talk) 18:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Not discussed by reliable sources WP:RS, doesn't to have made much ripples in the world; you find only a couple of forums and two or three mentiong it through googling, all of them utterly unnoticeable--Victor falk 21:52, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete in the total absence of reviews or other RSs for notability.  DGG (talk) 22:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete as there is no media coverage of this book and the author isn't even notable. A seach on lexis-nexis reveals no hits on this book, ditto with google news. I tagged it for notability months ago and no-one showed notability. Jayran 00:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep -- let's be careful not to pick books for deletion because we don't like the content. I don't see any delete notices on High Score!: The Illustrated History of Electronic Games, as pointed out above, and this book is over 20x more popular on Amazon. Almost 100 reviews on Amazon are enough for me to give a cautious keep.  -Quasipalm 02:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point, does someone want to AfD High Score for me? CRGreathouse (t | c) 01:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * See WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS If you think that there is a problem with another article, put it up for deletion. Look at this book on its own notability. Jayran 02:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * And see WP:UGH for the reason why this and not the other works are listed for deleting. And as long as we're WP:SPAMMING then a couple of editors here might want to check out: WP:JNN, WP:VAGUEWAVE and WP:NOEFFORT. Rune X2 06:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * This article has been tagged with a notability tag for months and no one has ever suggested why it is notable. It is telling that this book has received no hits on Lexis Nexis or Google News. There appears to be no reviews by a rs. The fact that this book hasn't even received attention in its own cottage industry shows that it has no notability. Of the books listed, several should be deleted but the Melville book is notable on the basis of its author and among that list, the book, Harmful to Minors won a book award and attracted media attention. I don't know about the others as they make no mention of notability. Jayran 16:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * As per my comment, the 100 reviews on Amazon are enough for me to say keep. -Quasipalm 00:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom (and per DGG - rarely do I see a delete !vote [[Image:Face-smile.svg|20px]]) as it fails all the criterias at WP:BK. It would help the editors who are advocating 'keep' if they showed how it meets the WP:N & WP:BK criterias instead of raising arguments for WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and WP:ILIKEIT. Also, canvassing (or what can be deemed canvassing) is not the best approach and can be seen as disruptive. → AA (talk) — 07:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * To this I'd like to add that some of them should assume good faith, and not make some shrill or insinuating accusations that every editor voting delete is trying to censor this book--Victor falk 08:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * I have already made the case that I find the book noteable on account of the author being noteable.
 * And talking of "shrill or insinuating accusations", then it would help if you didn't make ridiculous exaggerations ("every editor") and shrill or insinuating accusations against editors trying to keep this book. And remember this is not a vote, and that merely stating any number of WPs, WP:BK, WP:N or just stating it isn't notable or the article hasn't been worked on, is neither here nor there. Rune X2 09:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * sorry, I meant "a lot of", "many" or "most"--Victor falk 11:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Please accept the fact that an author's notability doesn't make ipso facto any and all of his books noteable--Victor falk 10:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No. I can easily accept the obvious fact that my opinion is not shared by most editors in this discussion, what I don’t like is how "noteability" is presented by some as a scientific verifiable fact, rather than just your own opinion. I also don’t much care being accused of making "shrill or insinuating accusations" Rune X2 11:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You have stated it - yes. Could you elaborate please and explain then how "The book's author is so historically significant that any of his or her written works may be considered notable, even in the absence of secondary sources." (the example given is "For example, a person whose life or works is a subject of common classroom study."). Thanks. → AA (talk) — 10:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * For fear of repeating myself, then I believe the author's page would become less useful and interesting, when you remove links to his books. I personally like to browse around Wikipedia, clicking from one article to the next and see where it takes me. If I was to happen on this article, and was interested in his book, then with this article gone, I’d have to copy-paste the book into Amazon or Google or whatever to see what it is about. This to me is a less useful Wikipedia. Of course, the material could just be lifted from the book page and moved to the author-page. But that would make it unnecessary cumbersome page. – Do you believe the author article would be improved by removing this article?


 * I also happen to believe Wikipedia should have room to cater to less mainstream, or even obscure, interests.


 * And finally I find it somewhat disingenuous to re-nominate an already nominated article, without there being substantial new development to think the situation has altered in some essential way. But the nominater, who hasn’t even bothered to come back and discuss his nomination, made no startling new arguments. Just a tired rehash of the old ones. It smacks of putting up an article you dislike for nomination again and again until one day you get your way. I don't like it when my country does it, and I don't like it when I see it on Wikipedia Rune X2 11:54, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the explanation and please remember to assume good faith. The nominator has given a valid reason for the nomination - i.e. fails WP:N. The first AfD (which closed as "No consensus") was 2 years ago and therefore the article has had sufficient time to establish notability (which, once established, would ensure the article is not nominated again for this reason). We shall see what the closing admin says this time as there does appear to be a clear consensus. → AA (talk) — 12:08, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Consensus? What, I don't exist? No, there is no consensus as several editors have expressed their disagreement. If there was consensus we wouldn’t be talking. There do however seem to be a majority if that is what you mean. Rune X2 16:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Consensus doesn't mean unanimity, it means majority opinion. faithless   (speak)  01:34, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * No, it doesn't mean that either. You may want to look at WP:CONSENSUS  Citi Cat   ♫ 02:25, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
 * You may want to look at a dictionary. Sorry, that came out much more dick-ish than was intended. I apologize. faithless   (speak)  03:22, 22 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete: if a non-notable book has a decent article I might WP:IGNORE or bend the rules a bit, but if the article doesn't even say as much as the blurb on the book's back cover... why do we even have it? It's puffery or vanity.  Now if the article was expanded that wouldn't make the book more notable but it might sway some editors. CRGreathouse (t | c) 15:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete, no evidence of notability in the form of non-trivial coverage in secondary reliable sources has been provided. not now, nor in the 2 years since the first nomination.  ITAQALLAH   14:28, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete, per others, no evidence of notability.Bless sins 20:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete The book's content is irrelevant, what matters is that the article definitely fails to illustrate that the book meets the notability criteria in WP:BK and therefore it cannot remain. -- Kudret abi Talk 08:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep - there are two reviews listed in the external links so it at least has some minimal coverage. // Liftarn


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.