Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Italian inventions and scientific discoveries


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Coffee //  have a cup  //  ark  // 05:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Italian inventions and scientific discoveries

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A largely indiscriminate collection of articles gathered onto one page, presenting subjects covered elsewhere predominantly in a non-neutral way. I42 (talk) 22:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - Per nom. Wikipedia is not a collection of lists; this serves little purpose aside from nationalistic boosterism. &mdash;ShadowRanger (talk 23:15, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete while it may be possible to create a timeline of scientific advances located in italy, or a list of italian inventors, this article is hopelessly flawed, not even sure where to begin critiquing it.. i cant see how this could be fixed up without a total rethinking and rewrite. Mercurywoodrose (talk) 04:13, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep The mere fact that you cannot begin to criticise it does not provide a good reason to delete it: you must criticise it! Now it has been rewritten in Neutral form. It is also not an indiscriminate collection of articles. It is a collection of Inventions made by Italians. As such there is a discriminate logic behind it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Altes2009 (talk • contribs) 04:28, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The article appears to be an attempt to bolster Italian pride, which is inherently POV. this belongs on a website promoting italian culture and accomplishments (which is a fine idea of course). the list is of controversial discoveries, presumably predating non-italian inventors of the same ideas, but no references outside of the Italian are given. this is extremely suspicious. surely at least one valid reference can be given in english. Da Vinci is not here? huge omission. Enrico Fermi was pretty much an american when he worked here. is this italian or italian american, or any person of italian ancestry? and i really dont think that he "invented" the nuclear power plant. they came later, and there are many people who worked on them. some technological accomplishments are credited to groups of people, not always one person, depending on whether they are systems creations or just small, precise implementations of technology. there is no adequate lead paragraph defining the list, or defining whether its meant to be a list or an essay article. if its a list, it should show significant blue links to actual articles on various inventions. the redlinks of the section headings is totally against WMOS, and the use of references for each section is not WMOS, and shows an lack of familiarity with WP writing methods. this is a big red flag, unfortunately, for whether any of the content is accurate. the language is often overly promotional. your blanking the page is WP:OWNERSHIP, this is NOT your article, once its posted here, its free for anyone to edit, and no one can arbitrarily blank it, even a major contributor. YOU need to provide reasons for what you add, AND what you remove. the criteria for admission to this list are somewhat unclear, as i said above, but what is actually here doesnt appear to be anywhere near complete. this appears to be a huge attempt to simply promote alternate theories for the timelines for particular inventions, with a bias towards Italian origins. based on this last point, this list must absolutely be rethought from the ground up. i dont see any content, even the references, that need to be saved to rewrite. i would suggest you (or anyone else interested in this subject) rewrite this in italian, and post this article on the italian WP, and if it stands there, transwiki it. i would hope its not acceptable there. and if this article stands here, i will be happy to work on it, but im holding off right now because i dont see it surviving afd, no matter what is done with it.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 00:49, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Coffee //  have a cup  //  flagged revs now!  // 05:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete I'm not a fan of these weird lists. Does wp have a policy on this kind of view on data like this? ErikHaugen (talk) 19:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - From link in my vote: Wikipedia is not a collection of lists. &mdash;ShadowRanger (talk 22:44, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep It definitely needs work, but the topic of Italian claims to having invented or discovered something generally credited to others is a topic of interest. The author hasn't yet learned the Wikipedia style and format for sourcing, but I can see the potential for this.  I suspect that User:Altes2009 has a fluency in Italian and English, and could make contributions to our red-white-and-blue website.  Since it appears that this is in danger of deletion, I recommend Altes might want to userfy this and polish it up.  Mandsford (talk) 22:31, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I just don't see the reason for maintaining lists that provides little in the way of additional information, while acting as a kind of content fork that allows people of nationality 'X' to make claims to the discovery of a particular invention in a place where it is insulated from the article itself. If there is clear knowledge of the location where something was invented, it can be noted in the specific article; if there is a dispute (with reliable sources on both sides rendering it arguable) then that can be noted. Making a special article to extol the virtues of a particular region (in the form of "look what it gave to the world") has none of the benefits of technology specific timelines (e.g. Communications, Transportation) and significant costs (people don't edit war over the order in which technologies were introduced, they will over which country lays claim to an invention). &mdash;ShadowRanger (talk 22:44, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - ShadowRanger summed it up nicely. I agree with the nominator; the facts could be covered better elsewhere. Also, I'm sure many many more discoveries than just the few listed were made in Italy or by Italians. Airplaneman  talk 02:19, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Delete The article is simply a regurgitation of taking citations from other Wikipedia articles and then simply pasting it on an article created without any outside or external sources given to make qualified claims to the so-called Italian inventions. Not only is the article not Wikified, it is not encyclopedic in nature. Listing patents that Italian inventors were awrded likewise only tell the reader that they were either the first to file a patent caveat, or to patent an improvement on an invention already accomplished by a previous claimant. Keep in mind, first to file does not exclusively entitle a person to make the claim of first to invent. There is nothing referenced in the article to suggest otherwise that these Italian inventors truly were the first to invent what is listed on this sloppy attempt to create an article. If the creator of this article knew anything about United States patent law before adding U.S. patents to the article, he would have also realized that the U.S. unlike other countries around the world only recognizes inventors who make a claim of first to invent rather than the claim of first to patent. And to assume that just because these Italians were awarded patents therefore means that the United States Government recognizes them as the original inventors does not have any merit. An innovator who files and is awarded a patent does NOT necessarily or definitively mean that he or she was the original inventor of the claim in question. If this article is intended to inform readers about Italian patents, then great! Re-name this article Italian patents to reflect the content. Otherwise, this article has little to no information whatsoever about so-called Italian inventions. Therefore, if the attempt was to solely create an article on Italian inventions, it has failed indeed. I would like to nominate, like the majority of other posters, to delete this article. --Yoganate79 (talk) 07:57, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per Yoganate79 and ShadowRanger. A clipfile of Wikipedia article contents about some likely inventions and some unlikely/disputed inventions, perhaps with a goal of nationalistic pride. Edison (talk) 20:44, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep but much rework is needed.Greyhood (talk) 21:24, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * What is the reasoning behind your recommendation? I42 (talk) 22:35, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I agree that in the current form the article is terribly shaped "collection of articles gathered onto one page". However the very idea to collect Italian or any other nation inventions and discoveries into one page is not bad at all and obviously quite encyclopedic, at least as much as List of Chinese inventions and other articles of the kind. That's why I think the discussed article should be reworked and perhaps also renamed, but no reason to delete it completely. Though, the amount of needed rework seems to be so much, that deletion and starting new page in better format is also an option.Greyhood (talk)


 * comment if someone can find a series of sources that themselves extoll or elaborate italian contributions to science,an article about each of those sources (books, movies), if notable themselves, would make sense.hm, the point about chinese inventions is interesting. my take on that is this: China has a long list of well documented innovations, and their history of this is highly notable. i would be inclined to NOT include too many modern inventions in the china article. Italy: not so much (rome,yes, that is not the same). this list stretches out the contributions to cover too many trivial facts. also, the chinese inventions are traditionally credited to the nation/empire/culture,as the individuals are not known. for modern times, lists of innovations by nation probably belong in the articles on those nations, not as a content fork.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 19:17, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.