Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ivan Lee (bishop)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.  So Why  13:06, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Ivan Lee (bishop)

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Completing nomination on behalf of, whose rationale (seen here) reads thus: "having an organisational position is not enough for notability - WP:GNG". On the merits, I have no opinion. UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 17:36, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Weak delete - it remains controversial whether all bishops in the Anglican community are automatically notable. I think all bishops of apostolic churches are notable, but I'm willing to concede that assistant bishops are not necessarily so. Bearian (talk) 21:54, 27 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. Grahame (talk) 23:39, 28 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete on the basis of WP:N. I've had a look for sources that discuss Lee, I've found a bunch of Anglican church sources that are not independent, as well as a bunch of quotes by Lee on other issues (like this), but those are not discussions of Lee himself.  Lankiveil (speak to me) 01:59, 29 January 2017 (UTC).
 *  Redirect Keep to Assistant bishops in the Diocese of Sydney. All the information in the article is there already by direct implication.  I cannot find anything to support notability in its own right. Aoziwe (talk) 11:36, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Changing my opinion to Keep per WP:HEY. Sufficient for GNG now.   Aoziwe (talk) 12:26, 2 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:CLERGYOUTCOMES. It has been a long-standing practice to keep all Anglican bishops. StAnselm (talk) 01:59, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * That's as may be, but how do we apply that to an Assistant Bishop? UltraExactZZ Said~ Did 14:47, 31 January 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. StAnselm (talk) 02:00, 31 January 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep as per WP:CLERGYOUTCOMES. He is not a Bishop suffragan, (Suffragan bishop,) he is the Bishop of the Western Region, one of the Assistant bishops in the Diocese of Sydney, but a full-charge bishop, not a suffragan.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:15, 31 January 2017 (UTC) He is "only" an assistant bishop.  See below why we shoulc nevertheless keep/E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Just by the by, a news archive search produces newspaper coverage of Lee doing routine bishop things: ordaining pastors, dedicating a memorial plaque honoring a much-beloved headmaster, and so forth.E.M.Gregory (talk)
 * All WP:ROUTINE stuff, in other words? Lankiveil (speak to me) 11:24, 1 February 2017 (UTC).


 * Comment I do not get it. As long as the article is a micro stub what is the point of it.  GNG requires depth, which cannot be over ridden by SNGs.  The article currently is actually less informative than what is in the table in Assistant bishops in the Diocese of Sydney, so reduce the uninformative clutter and just redirect to that.  If there are core depth references about the bishop himself, can one of the Keepers please list a few, to let me see otherwise.  Aoziwe (talk) 11:43, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * We have this policy on WP:CLERGYOUTCOMES because bishops are powerful and important.  It is true that some bishoprics are less powerful than others, which is why we restrict this practice to major churches.  And while it is true that some bishoprics, like some independent states, are less powerful in recent centuries than they were in earlier ones, we keep all men in lists like List of rulers of Baden, and even though there is nothing much to say about Herman VIII, Margrave of Baden-Pforzheim, or about the incumbent Maximilian, Margrave of Baden.  We not infrequently find that a largely forgotten man like Richard Trevor (bishop) comes in for a new wave of attention, in this case because he bought a group of paintings of a man and his sons known to art historians as Jacob and his twelve sons by Francisco de Zurbarán - going on a major international tour this summer.  Many things can draw sudden attention to a bishop, living or dead.   Adnd that is why we keep all of these bishops the way we keep articles about all heads of state, even heads of state as minor as Sint Maarten, (even though there is little to say about the incumbent Eugene Holiday.  And we keep every elected member of a provincial legislatures, even the New Hampshire House of Representatives, which, with 400 members, necessarily includes a member of virtually every household in the state, and means that we have about a great many individuals far less notable than Ivan Lee.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:51, 1 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete. He's an assistant bishop. Generally only diocesan bishops are considered to be inherently notable at AfD. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:54, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * See my comment above, I don't think that's quiet accurate. Although I am not defending assistant bishops as automatically getting pages.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:56, 1 February 2017 (UTC)  as an editor who may understand something about the Anglican hierarchy.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:11, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I know it is accurate. We have certainly never assumed anyone except a diocesan bishop is inherently notable. Non-diocesan bishops have been deleted in the past - in fact, I don't think I've ever seen one kept. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:24, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Check. He is an assistant bishop in the diocese of Sydney.  Not automatically notable.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Really? Can you give me an example of an AfD about an assistant bishop? StAnselm (talk) 23:03, 1 February 2017 (UTC)


 * WP:HEY, We can now Keep in the ordinary way. Using his middle name brings up coverage of his career, which I have added to the page.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:50, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Comment E.M.Gregory, the additions still don't include anything notable.  Most of your examples above are of people who have done something notable or have been in a notable position.  Eugene Holiday is governor of a Dutch land, which is a notable position.  Your claim about the New Hampshire House of Representatives seems somewhat exaggerated:  the article says "On average, each legislator represents about 3,300 residents" which looks like a bit more than a household. A sampling in Assistant bishops in the Diocese of Sydney shows assistant bishops who became notable through elevation to bishop.  As Lankiveil says, the Lee material is still all WP:ROUTINE stuff. Wikiain (talk) 22:08, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * In fact, every single name on that page is blue-linked. Why is this article being singled out? StAnselm (talk) 23:03, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * StAnselm, many editors are ignorant of the nature of Bishopship, ignorant of Christianty, and ignorant of history.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:14, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Wikiain, It is always difficult to enter a conversation that has been going on for a while. However, do note that the "examples" you refer to were not examples, but an explanation of the reasons why in terms of notability, Anglican Bishops are treated like heads of state and members provincial legislatures (Also: I sometimes forget that there is NOJOKINGALLOWEDONWIKIPEDIA; but I assure you that the New Hampshire remark was a joke. ) Note, however, that David Boutin and many similar name check articles exist because the position they hold is notable.  Please take another look at the articles I cited, I do NOT regard the sourcing as "routine" or inadequate as inadequate. E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:06, 1 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Any editor who can claim that the appointment of this son of Chinese immigrants is less than notable cannot be aware of how radical this was in White Australia.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:11, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * You realise that "white Australia" ended as a policy well before Lee's appointment in 2002, right? Lankiveil (speak to me) 23:26, 1 February 2017 (UTC).
 * Of course I do. And I also realize that it was many years before the complexion of theocountry began oto change.  And that Racism in Australia did not vanish with repeal.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:54, 1 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Comment: I fear there are a number of editors who don't understand how assistant bishops work in an archdiocese. The only reason he's an "assistant" is that it's an arch-diocese. Otherwise "Western Region" would be its own diocese. After all, Bishop Lee has his "own" cathedral: St John's Cathedral, Parramatta. StAnselm (talk) 23:23, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * So an archdiocese is less than a diocese although an archbishop is more than a bishop? And he works in a big office? These ecclesiastical arcana aren't convincing me. Wikiain (talk) 23:39, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
 * What on earth are you talking about? I'm suggesting a "region" in an archdiocese is the equivalent to a diocese. StAnselm (talk) 00:07, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * But it isn't, is it? Otherwise it would be called a diocese! An archdiocese in the Anglican church is just a diocese that happens to be headed by an archbishop as its diocesan bishop. The group of dioceses headed by that archbishop is a province. This is merely an area of a diocese. See Diocese of Canterbury as opposed to Province of Canterbury, for example. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:55, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * The Diocese of Canterbury doesn't have regions; it has archdeaconries instead, such as the Archdeacon of Maidstone. So the Bishop of the Western Region might be like that, or like the Bishop of Dover, except that there is no cathedral in Dover. (And, needless to say, all the Bishops of Dover have WP articles.) StAnselm (talk) 11:00, 2 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Note This article in The Tablet: First Chinese-Australian bishop will be a great enrichment to the Church Great story, and, pace the snark from User:Lankiveil above, something worth bragging about.  Except, the story ran in 2017.  And it's about Roman Catholic Bishop Anthony Fisher.  An article published in 2002 in the Sydney Morning Herald (already added to the article) called Ivan Lee the first Chinese-Australian Bishop.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:14, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * What does the Tablet's "First Chinese-Australian bishop" in the Catholic church in 2017 show about an Anglican assistant bishop in 2002? Being the "first" something is not intrinsicaily notable.  (And Lankiveil was simply noting that your reference to the White Australia policy was wrong by about 30 years.  Beat me to it by a couple of moments.) Wikiain (talk) 02:09, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I had pointed to the fact that he is the son of immigrants form China, which I added to the page, citing an article in the Sydney Morning Herald, with the assertion that this fact supports notability, another editor dismissed the assertion. I brought this story from a  London paper trumpeting the appointment of the ''First Chinese-Australian bishop" to show that this is, indeed, a type of  ethnic milestone regarded as significant by the world in general.E.M.Gregory (talk) 10:29, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * You say "a type of ethnic milestone regarded as significant by the world in general".  But a milestone upon what road?  It is the road to assistant bishop and I am suggesting that you need something more.
 * Are you suggesting that Lee's appointment is an exception to an ordinary practice of racial discrimination by the Catholic and Anglican churches in Australia? If you are, please provide evidence.  My impression is that, in recent decades, those organisations have been at the forefront of opposition to racial discrimination.
 * Please also consider an alternative and innocent explanation: that Lee being a first Chinese-Australian Anglican assistant bishop might be simply because there might not be very many Chinese-Australian Anglicans, or not with sufficient qualifications for that level of appointment.  I have no way to find out, but I think you should consider these possibilities.Wikiain (talk) 12:00, 2 February 2017 (UTC).
 * I meant only that these ethnic group "firsts" are celebrated in the ethnic and general press. The fact is that Chinese parishes are a huge and flourishing part of the Anglican community in general and NSW in particular.  And, yes, of course the Church has been in the forefront on this issue.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:22, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * You keep adding citations, but none of them shows that Lee has influenced anybody. Maybe you can show that, but just referring to him as a "leader" in an apparently small organisation does not do so—especially because the Porter article cited does not actually mention him. Nor is he mentioned in the GAFCON article. Through that article, I have traced the linked organisation FCA Australia, which however also does not mention Lee—especially, as of the election of directors in September 2016 he is not a director of that body. Wikiain (talk) 13:03, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Certainly he was/is part of the leadership of GAFCOM, .E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:26, 2 February 2017 (UTC)


 * WP:HEYMANN I urge editors to look at the sourcing now in the article.  And to remember that "Lee" is such a common name that some good-faith searches may have found less than is out there.  Also, the many hits about his bout with pancreatic cancer  probably account for the fact that he appears to have been less active in recent years that he was about a decade ago.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:22, 2 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep per GNG. Also, as E.M.Gregory points out, there are likely more offline sources given his activity has flagged. Smmurphy(Talk) 15:36, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete. despite the good work of E.M.Gregory. There simply isn't enough. The SNG limits itself to bishops for a reason--unless they;re promoted, an assistant bishop is not likely to be notable.  DGG ( talk ) 06:05, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
 * I think you misunderstand what an assistant bishop is: an assistant bishop is a bishop. See Bishop. When WP:CLERGY mentions "bishop" that includes assistants (though AFAIK no "assistant bishop" has ever been nominated before at AfD). StAnselm (talk) 07:48, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ansh 666 01:46, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep a/c the article linked to above, Bishop an assistant bishop in the Anglican church would normally be a retired bishop, though there seems to be no precise specification. However,  based on the article Assistant bishops in the Diocese of Sydney, that paragraph is not correct, they seem rather to be in charge of a territorial Region within the diocese. Since that's the essence of why bishops are considered notable, this would count.  DGG ( talk ) 02:09, 5 February 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, they are more like "Area bishops" in England. StAnselm (talk) 02:12, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


 * Keep -- Bishops in major denominations are normally notable, and this includes suffrigans, who may in some places be called Assistant bishops.  The fact that a diocese needs an assistant bishop is itself an indication that the diocese is big enough to need one, pointing to notability.  If the position is anything like a suffrigan in England, the position allows him to minister anywhere in the diocese, but he in fact concentrates on a particular area.  Nevertheless, territory should be irrelevant. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:40, 12 February 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.