Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jack Talbert (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus.  MBisanz  talk 01:57, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Jack Talbert
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Lack of significant coverage to establish notability; authored by the subject (WP:SPS / WP:COI ). The limited-coverage provided discusses the carburetor he "improved," but the sources are not scientific and the subject is. This led to the deletion of the article related to the carburetor process in question, Gasoline vapor. E8 (talk) 06:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete- per statements above. ttonyb1 (talk) 14:20, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:13, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:13, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep The two sources already used for the page cover him in detail. In my opinion, he meets the general notability criterion of "significant coverage in independent reliable sources".  A google news archive search also pulls up a number more sources (although not public access) written about this man in the context of his inventive work on cars: .  Notability isn't the same as being famous--nor does he need to have enough material to write a big page to justify a keep.  Also, conflict of interest is not relevant to deletion discussions and should be handled separately, see WP:COI for info on how to handle it, through communicating with the user and banning and/or semiprotection of the page as a last resort.  Cazort (talk) 00:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The Google link adds a single source that is redundant with those posted, and as with the others, not reliable within the content area (the coverage is of the carburetor device, not Talbert). Talbert's only verifiable role is the use of the device. Clarifying: from WP:REL: "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." Further, it warns: "For information about academic topics, such as physics or ancient history, scholarly sources are preferred over news stories. Newspapers tend to misrepresent results, leaving out crucial details and reporting discoveries out of context. For example, news reports often fail to adequately report methodology, errors, risks, and costs associated with a new scientific result or medical treatment." The news reports cited for this article make no attempt posting results or data, and given that this is an engineering topic (clearly scholarly), they are not reliable within this content area. Also note the exceptional claims require exceptional sources clause; the mileage claims made in the referencing articles are clearly exceptional, but entirely unsubstantiated (borderline hoax). The carburetor device used to establish Talbert's notability is not verifiable and was removed from Wikipedia (read the above-linked debate for details).--E8 (talk) 01:44, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * One more comment...I understand your concerns about the sources being non-scientific and I would agree with you there. But I do not think this article is about science--it's about an inventor who has attracted attention for his claims.  Wikipedia's standards are verifiability, not truth...and it's certainly more than verifiable that this man has done something to attract sustained media attention.  Perhaps we should just rewrite the article in a more skeptical tone.  Cazort (talk) 13:36, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Jack Talbert does not claim to be the inventor; in the references, he states this was his father's invention. His role is the use of and promotion of said unproven device. This alone, does not establish notability, in my opinion. Perhaps it is simplest to make the suggested compromise, rewriting the page to more accurately reflect his role.--E8 (talk) 19:01, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * 2 Questions The two sources listed on the page, one of which you deleted, both meet WP:RS (do you dispute this?):, , and both cover the topic of Jack Talbert, in the context of his work on cars directly in detail (see WP:GNG)--do you dispute this? These two things constitute the general notability guideline.
 * And in a more practical sense, this man was driving a car that got well-over 40 mpg during a timeperiod where virtually nothing on the market did. I find it notable that a single man, perhaps working off the work of his father, was able to achieve more than the teams of engineers working for lots of big auto manufacturers.  It may not be enough for a huge page but I certainly find it interesting and worth preserving.  And it is WP:Verifiable.  Cazort (talk) 13:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * This individual claimed mileage gains, an important distinction. There are many alternative fuel / energy saving hoaxes that have found mainstream media attention (Brown's Gas, recently rebilled as water for gas is an example; the EPA has a list as well). My concern is, this attention is rarely accompanied by any scientific scrutiny, substantiation of claims made, or retractions when a hoax is established. What will prevent Wikipedia from becoming littered with this type of hoax?--E8 (talk) 19:01, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Comment about sources You claimed "Google link adds a single source that is redundant with those posted". My google news archive search, the link above, finds the following sources: There are two sources from 1997, and sources from 2006-2007, showing that this man has attracted sustained media attention rather than a one-time event. I am getting more and more convinced the more I look into this. I am changing my recommendation to a Strong Keep. Cazort (talk) 13:25, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "Man fights the pain at the pump", Topeka Capital Journal - Jun 13, 2006.
 * "ABILENE MAN TOUTS HIS 'SUPER CARBURETOR'", Wichita Eagle - NewsBank - Mar 5, 2006.
 * "Necessity, they say, is a mother", Manhattan Mercury - NewsBank - Jun 18, 2007.
 * "Midwest Grows Wheat, Corn, Inventors; Creativity: The region is full...", Los Angeles Times - ProQuest Archiver - Oct 19, 1997.  This article reads: "Abilene inventor Jack Talbert, 30, has met mostly frustration in trying to interest major auto makers and the Department of Energy in a device he says ..."
 * "RETIRED FARMER, 83, SHOWS WHY KANSAS IS PRIME PLACE FOR INVENTORS TO...", St. Louis Post-Dispatch - NewsBank - Sep 14, 199. (covers same material as previous article)
 * Totally random (not useful for establishing notability) but this article also mentions him at age 18 and would provide some interesting background to generally improve the article: "LILLIAN DAHMAN, 110, LIKED TO TALK OF CHANGES SHE'D SEEN", Wichita Eagle - NewsBank - Oct 5, 1986.
 * Point conceded. I find the differing Wikipedia inclusion standards confusing, as the device which is used to establish Talbert's notability is not itself, worthy of inclusion.--E8 (talk) 19:01, 7 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment I just did some cleanup, replaced the infobox with just a picture--it seemed self-promotional and contained unsourced facts. I also included some less-than-flattering facts out of the articles, such as the substential drawbacks of the modifications that Talbert made to his car.  Cazort (talk) 14:04, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 00:05, 11 April 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.