Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jacky Liew (3rd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. ✗ plicit  11:37, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Jacky Liew
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

The AfD over at Chinese Wikipedia was closed as delete. From what I can see from the last AfD here at enwiki, the debate was mostly around the sources. People suggest that he meets GNG but all of those sources are not reliable at all. Because press releases on Chinese media don’t usually indicate that it is a press release, I will go over each source here:


 * The founder of Malaysian foodie Shi Gongzi who laid the foundation for the “Five Origins of Malaysian Cuisine”
 * This is a dead link. archive is here suggesting a repost from Economic Information Daily
 * Economic Information Daily is a repost from an article by eastday.com (archive link).
 * In a section that explains his supposed awards and accolades, the rewards cannot be found or attributed on the internet.
 * “他亦是第一个由皇宫授勋“卓越服务徽章”” (He was also the first to be awarded the “Outstanding Service Badge” by the Royal Palace.) A Google Search brings up nothing of the exact wording, except for advertising articles about Jacky Liew, and some as names for rewards from companies to their workers. NOTE: The badge actually exists, but has no media coverage for Jacky Liew actually recieving them beside being in advertising articles. See below for more analysis
 * “此论说，2011年，获得中国国际研讨会优秀论文奖” (This theory, in 2011, won the China International Symposium Outstanding Paper Award) See Google. There is no international symposium outstanding paper award.
 * The article mentions “且还是马来西亚制造许多“第一”的鼻祖” in its lede. (And also the originator of many “firsts” made in Malaysia) but none of the “firsts” were actually claimed. If this was real, they should at least give one example.
 * The Rise of Malaysian Foodie “Shi Gongzi” - archive link
 * “有人说,在大马不认识食公子,定是没有社交或出来用餐的人” (Some people say that if you don’t know this foodie in Malaysia, you must be someone who doesn’t socialize or go out to eat.) - Sure, where are all the reliable sources from malaysian media? This is just blatant advertising.
 * “就连大学论文都指出,他是马来西亚第一个以美食家称誉的作家” (Even university essays point out that he is the first author in Malaysia to be known as a foodie) - Sure, where are the essays at?
 * The first author in Malaysia known as a gourmet, “Sik Son”
 * No page author or editor. “来源：网络” (Source: Internet)
 * Also notice this sentence “如今虽已脱离平面媒体的他，仍专心研究起大数据与智能科研的学说理论” (Although he has left the print media now, he still concentrates on the theory of big data and intelligent scientific research) - no mention of the specific type of scientific research or big data carried out by Jacky Liew. Seems to be just using a common buzzword used for advertising in China.
 * All of these article cover some part of his early life, or before he became a foodie, but none of the articles show the name(s) of the author. If these were not written by Jacky Liew himself or someone with a conflict of interest, the articles should at least have an interviewer. This specific source does not have any author at all.
 * The scientific research of the God of Cookery-Foodboy re-defines the new food industry with artificial intelligence - archive link
 * Note that this article does not have a page author or editor. “中关村在线 转载” (ZOL repost) suggest a repost but this cannot be found anywhere else on the Internet.
 * “与孔子、曹操、杜甫、苏轼、张岱、李渔、金圣叹、袁枚等八位古代美食家并称” (Together with eight ancient gourmets including Confucius, Cao Cao, Du Fu, Su Shi, Zhang Dai, Li Yu, Jin Shengtan and Yuan Mei) - All of this is nonsense. These are poets, warlords, writers, and politicians that are respected in history. What qualifications does he have to make him comparable to the ancient Chinese scolars?
 * Nothing in this article is specific. There was no actual research topic or research findings but just buzzwords being tossed around. Except for one, “就以他在2000年,阅读过这么一篇由中国生产力中心出版《能力杂志》刊载类似大数据资讯统计文章” (In 2000, he read such an article published by the China Productivity Center, “Capability Magazine”, which published a similar big data information statistics article.) Translation is probably inaccurate, but the only specific thing I can find from this article is about how he read a thing.
 * The originator of Malaysian gourmets, “Shi Gongzi”
 * Revisiting this service medal thing, I think it is at here - “Medal for Outstanding Public Service”, and you cannot find any media coverage in Malaysia about this medal being given to him. See Google. I’ve tried using Chinese and English, no results are reliable media sources.
 * The author information in the page suggest a repost from http://www.rongmeiwang.cn/, except Google fails to find the supposedly original article.
 * Disclaimer on the bottom reads “The content above (including the videos, pictures and audios if any) is uploaded and posted by the user of Dafeng Hao, which is a social media platform and merely provides information storage space services.”
 * Truly Nyonya Malacca, a work handed down by the world’s gourmet master Shi Gongzi
 * Repost from sdnews - these two articles even have the same editor!
 * “各国为他创建的维基,便有十数个,中国百度、快懂、搜狗百科选入他与古代美食家，孔子、曹操、杜甫、苏轼、张岱、李渔、金圣叹、袁枚并峙的现代美食家” (There are more than a dozen wikis created for him by various countries. China’s Baidu, KuaDao, and Sogou Encyclopedia have selected him and he is comparable to ancient gourmets, Confucius, Cao Cao, Du Fu, Su Shi, Zhang Dai, Li Yu, Jin Shengtan, and Yuan Mei.) - This is so obvious I am not going to say anything.
 * Same “中国国际研讨会优秀论文奖” (China International Symposium Outstanding Paper Award) bullshit.
 * A Biography Review of the Gourmet “Malaysian God of Cookery, the Originator of Shi Gongzi” - achive link
 * “后被各国“维基”收录，译成15种语言及中国百度、快懂、搜狗各百科选入和古代美食家，至圣先师孔子、军事家曹操、诗圣杜甫、北宋大文豪苏轼、史学家张岱、戏曲家李渔、文学家金圣叹、散文家袁枚并称的近代华人美食家” (He was later included in “Wikis” of various countries, translated into 15 languages, and selected in China’s Baidu, Kuaidi, and Sogou encyclopedias. He is a modern Chinese gourmet together with the ancient gourmets, the most holy teacher Confucius, the military strategist Cao Cao, the poet Du Fu, the great writer Su Shi of the Northern Song Dynasty, the historian Zhang Dai, the dramatist Li Yu, the writer Jin Shengtan, and the essayist Yuan Mei.) - Look, surely foodies usually get praised, but none of them get praised like this. All these articles using the same “creative” praise by listing notable historical people really makes me wonder who wrote all of this, since none of them have a page author.
 * “世界美食家里，论名气，资历及才华，他是半点也不逊” (To the international foodies, in terms of fame, qualifications and talents, he is not inferior at all.) - If he has got that much fame, where can we find the coverage by non-Chinese media? Does anyone seriously believe that having articles about him in several languages of Wikipedia count?
 * Big data of the God of Cookery, Gourmet, and World Food Master
 * “当然,能同时被各国维基的标准收录,通过中国审核的百度、快懂、搜狗等百科选进,与中国古代美食家初祖伊尹、孔子、曹操、苏东坡并称的近代美食家,史记也不过是十数人” (Of course, being included in the standards of wikis of various countries at the same time, selected by Baidu, Kuaidi, Sogou and other encyclopedias reviewed by China, and a modern gourmet who is comparable first ancestor of ancient Chinese gourmets, Yi Yin, Confucius, Cao Cao, and Su Dongpo, makes him one of the few people in history) Same bullcrap.
 * No coverage of the supposed “Big Data”
 * Jacky Liew: This “foodie” is not ordinary, the first anniversary of the launch of the biography of “Shi Gongzi Classic”
 * “2008年，因其在马来西亚美食文化领域的卓越服务贡献，获得第十任国家元首颁发“社会卓越服务勋章”、“最高统治者贡献奖章”，更是第一个被召见进皇宫记述统治者生活的作家、美食家. 其后，在第十一届最高统治者御前，荣膺“世界美食大师”殊荣. 同时，他也是被世界数十国语言维基、中国各百科，作为马来西亚第一人，入选与古代八大美食家，孔子、曹操、杜甫、苏轼、张岱、李渔、金圣叹、袁枚并峙的近代华人美食家. ” -&gt; if you run this through Google translate, you will find the same service medal bullcrap, the Confucious crap, and the “listed on several Wikipedias” crap.
 * Still no page author.
 * The first author “Shi Gongzi” in Malaysia to be known as a foodie
 * “因其贡献优异被第十届最高元首授予社会卓越服务勋衔” - Service badge crap
 * “如今虽已脱离平面媒体的他，仍专心研究起大数据与智能科研的学说理论，这正是他一大转变” - word for word copy from another source with a different title.
 * No page author.
 * A food god ancestor who loves his wife
 * “并授予“社会卓越服务”勋衔” - same service badge thing
 * “然而，在一个雨夜，当他开启房门，见门柄挂着一个饭盒，第一次以为不知是谁送错. 到第二天，门把手一样有个饭盒，便留意起这是怎一回事，直到发觉这是位女大学生的房客” (However, on a rainy night, when he opened the door and saw a lunch box hanging on the door handle, he thought for the first time that he didn’t know who sent it wrong. The next day, there was a lunch box on the doorknob, and he paid attention to it until he realized that it was the tenant of a female college student.) - please note that the sentence was not grammatically correct and the google translate output had to be tweaked to make the output conprehensible. But it is more important to note that such an anecdote occurs on a page with no author. Is there an interviewer who wrote this story? No. It was Jacky Liew himself. Some of these articles even publish original photos that cannot be found anywhere.
 * Today’s Agriculture College
 * Just a database entry equivalent. Nothing significant here.
 * I also love how Jacky Liew is conveniently highlighted for us, and that is the only page, as if the uploader had any intentions other than to preserve a magazine.

There were also linguistic elements that I picked up suggesting one person wrote all of the articles, including but not limited to, missing subjects in a sentence, run-on sentences, and similiar uses of certain transitions. But I think the linguistic argument would be pretty weak (especially on enwiki), so I will not go into details here.

Overall, the article fails GNG because all of the sources are not reliable and the websites were likely paid to publish these kinds of articles missing factual details and full of unreasonable praise. 0x Deadbeef 09:29, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Authors, Food and drink, China,  and Malaysia. 0x Deadbeef  09:29, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Journalism-related deletion discussions. 0x Deadbeef  09:46, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: per nom. I had raised similar concerns on the sourcing in the first, and more editors piled in on the same point in the second AfD, now this is the third. This is by far the most in depth analysis/translations done on the given sources and should be apparent on the quality/reliability of the sources. – robertsky (talk) 12:12, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: per nom. I had raised similar concerns on the sourcing in the first, and more editors piled in on the same point in the second AfD, now this is the third. This is by far the most in depth analysis/translations done on the given sources and should be apparent on the quality/reliability of the sources. – robertsky (talk) 12:12, 26 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete Likely COI creation. Only claim to notability is what looks like a minor award which doesn't have its own article but is simply included in a very long lists of such medals. It's hard for me to search this subject, AGFing that 0xDeadbeef did a thorough BEFORE. valereee (talk) 12:15, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * On COI concerns, if one visits his official website at, links to the various wikipedia articles about him feature prominently above the fold, and also what appears to be his version of the enwiki article if the subject (and/or connected accounts) have their way. – robertsky (talk) 04:59, 27 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete That has to win an award for being the most thought-through, thorough and analytical nomination for deletion of all time. An absolute delight to be able to cry, joyously, 'Per Nom!'. Best Alexandermcnabb (talk) 13:09, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete same as last time, trying hard but not there. Source analysis is helpful. Oaktree b (talk) 13:32, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete: and would not be opposed to a WP:SNOW close. –– FormalDude   talk   15:06, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep: the discussion is repeated as the 2nd time AFD before, the repetition is meaningless, the deletion in chinese wiki does not mean english wiki need to be delete, furthermore, in Repeated AfD nomination limitation (failed proposal). the previous discussion is NON CONSENSUS, it shall not be notimated again since the last date to pass the page is 12 JUNE 2022. The rush to deletion can be the Wikipedia talk:Overzealous deletion.
 * KINDLY ATTENTION TO THAT.Arrisontan (talk) 15:58, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * You appear to be referring to a failed proposal from over fifteen years ago? Valereee (talk) 17:08, 26 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Then why the page still exist? It exist as a guidelines, if the proposal for deletion can be appear the next day after the previous Afd is passed, then it will open for precedent for anyone to do it so. It will cause a lot of workload and unneccessary discussion. As a result, an overzealous deletion appeared. Arrisontan (talk) 01:16, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: Sock confirmed on meta. meta:Special:Permalink/23568716 0x Deadbeef 03:31, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
 * It existed as an archive for a failed proposal aka historical record, also since it is a failed proposal, it is not policy or guideline that we need to adhere to. Also, Overzealous deletion is an essay, aka opinions by some editors and again not policy or guideline. Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 04:00, 27 July 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete: I went through 0xDEADBEEF's source analysis and mostly agree with the analysis. A lot of sources which are supposedly copied from other sources with no byline. Some articles have the same author and are basically a direct copy. Most articles are also user contribution and not by the websites. The medal given to Liew is likely to be Pingat Khidmat Masyarakat Cemerlang (Medal for Outstanding Public Service) which is ranked 22th out of 26 medals at Orders, decorations, and medals of Negeri Sembilan, aka an insignificant award. While the recipients for the medal is reported as a statistics, note that the medal is at a state level and not national level. The amount of medals given each year show the insignificance, see 98 for 2022 55 for 2021 (note there is much lesser medals awarded for the year) 107 for 2020 Justanothersgwikieditor (talk) 03:57, 27 July 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.