Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jacob Johnson (father of Andrew Johnson)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. King of &hearts;   &diams;   &clubs;  &spades; 03:37, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Jacob Johnson (father of Andrew Johnson)

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Taking to AFD since a prior PROD was contested. This guy fails WP:BIO as he wasn't noted for anything of his own merit (i.e. outside the family connection clearly mentioned within article title), and one cannot inherit notability simply from being related to a famous person, regardless of who that is. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 01:04, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of North Carolina-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 01:06, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. North America1000 01:53, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. North America1000 01:54, 26 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Speedy Keep. invalid nomination, as our criteria in WP:BIO is "or "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded" in the lead, and per WP:BASIC - "People are presumed notable if they have received significant coverage in multiple published[4] secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent of each other,[5] and independent of the subject.. The reason for the subject being recorded in history is irrelevant. It seems reliable sources take note of Presedential relations, for modern examples see - Mary Anne MacLeod Trump or Ann Dunham. As for our subject here, there is in-depth coverage in: here, here, here, . I shall note that Jacob Johnson's death (who died when Andrew was 3) was notable as it occurred in heroic circumstances - saving the life of a colonel Thomas Henderson, editor of the Raleigh Star - who happened to report about this at the time in the Raleigh Star. Icewhiz (talk) 18:24, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * This was NOT an invalid nomination, and speedy keep is being rather hasty. While I admittedly stand corrected on not being noted for anything of his own merit given the drowning rescue, only the World History link you provided specifically focuses on Jacob himself, and it doesn't look like he received individual attention for anything else other than being a President's father. Biographies on his son don't exactly count towards notability on a parent. It's better to have sources dedicated to Jacob (like that one URL of yours I highlighted) as opposed to mentions in works on other people. To be fair, the only other accessible source I found prior to the AFD that actually was about the man himself was a genealogical entry simply listing birth, death, and family stats. That reference definitely isn't significant coverage. Seems like a case of WP:BIO1E, which says When an individual is significant for his or her role in a single event, it may be unclear whether an article should be written about the individual, the event or both. In considering whether or not to create separate articles, the degree of significance of the event itself and of the individual's role within it should both be considered. The general rule is to cover the event, not the person. If this is his only prominent merit independent of Andrew, then simply a brief mention within his son's article should be enough, and there's nothing of encyclopedic value on Jacob that isn't already included there (yes the drowning rescue is mentioned). We're not supposed to be a Presidential family history/memorial site; see the WP:NOTGENEALOGY and WP:NOTMEMORIAL sections of WP:What Wikipedia is not for further details. Unfortunately, Wikipedians are oftentimes overly lenient with maintaining articles on their relatives, though I won't delve into merits on other specific individuals now per WP:WAX as those aren't relevant to this discussion. SNUGGUMS (talk / edits) 23:45, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * "This guy fails WP:BIO as he wasn't noted for anything of his own merit" IS a bad nom. An individual may be notable even if he has done nothing of merit - but got WP:SIGCOV for his non-meritous activities. Johnson's death is covered in several of the sources I provided above, as are his career and personal history. He passes GNG. Had he been just covered in geneagraphie you would have a point - but in this case he has over a page of content in at least a couple of books.Icewhiz (talk) 04:43, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Are any viable sources (other than the linked World History page and that genealogy listing) specifically about Jacob, though, and not just part of something focused on his son or wife? Those would do a better job of establishing notability. If not and the only prominent aspect of his own life unrelated to family affiliations was that rescue, then it's best to just stick with a brief mention him, his rescuing, and death within Andrew's page per my previous comments on WP:BIO1E. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 11:31, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Well beyond 1E as he is covered for his gallant death, his issue, and career as a tavern worker. The Raising of a President: The Mothers and Fathers of Our Nation's Leaders has an entry on him, and is not about the son.Icewhiz (talk) 11:44, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Definitely better than having to rely on an Andrew biography. Unfortunately, it's hard for me to comment on death details when my access gets cuts off after only one page while in the middle of discussing the drown rescue. That also is more of a collective gathering on Presidential parents you've already linked in your first comment than a source primarily focusing on him. I'm not saying it's a bad source, just that I can't get anything on Jacob as his own person other than the rescue out of it. Maybe I'll find something more accessible going into other details later on. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 12:11, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * I assume that you are saying that you only see page 350 of Wead, 2005. Here is the text for Jacob's entry as it extends to page 351 (which is visible to me at: - note that manually changing the url to point to a particular page sometimes reveals hidden pages of google books):
 * "...clothes, facing frigid temperatures, he became ill. Not long after ringing the bell for a funeral, he collapsed; he died shortly thereafter, leaving his wife and children alone.
 * Andrew Johnson, the youngest child and future president, was three years old. All he had of his father was an obituary written by Colonel [Thomas] Henderson on January 12, 1812 for the Raleigh Star.
 * [Blockquote]Died, in this city on Saturday last, Jacob Johnson, who cor many years occupied a humble but useful station. He was the city constable, sexton and porter to the State Bank. In his last illness he was visited by the principal inhabitants of the city, by all whom he was esteemed, none lament him, except perhaps his own relatives, more than the publisher of this newspaper, for he owes his life on a particular occasion to the kindness and humanity of Johnson.[38]
 * The rest of the page is dedicated to Mary McDonough Johnson. Smmurphy(Talk) 13:01, 27 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, only page 350 of that book showed up for me. I might fiddle with URLs fir different results later if I get the chance. Thank you for the tip on that and providing an excerpt. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 16:57, 27 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep - Presidential parents are commonly nominated for discussion. A recent example was Articles for deletion/Leslie Lynch King Sr. There is significant reliably sourced research on the parents of presidents. For example:
 * Wead, Doug. The Raising of a President: The Mothers and Fathers of Our Nation's Leaders. Simon and Schuster, 2005. p 350
 * Gullan, Harold I. Faith of Our Mothers: The Stories of Presidential Mothers from Mary Washington to Barbara Bush. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2001. p 98 ostensably about Mary Johnson but with significant coverage of Jacob
 * Jacob is also a given significant coverage independent of Andrew in: Schroeder-Lein, Glenna R., and Richard Zuczek. Andrew Johnson: a biographical companion. Abc-clio, 2001. p168-169
 * And, of course, Johnson is covered in biographies of his son Andrew and of his other son, William, for instance see:
 * Jones, James Sawyer. Life of Andrew Johnson: Seventeenth President of the United States. East Tennessee Publishing Company, 1901. p11-15
 * Muir, Andrew Forest. "William P. Johnson, Southern Proletarian and Unionist." Tennessee Historical Quarterly 15, no. 4 (1956): 330.
 * Trefousse, Hans L. Andrew Johnson: A Biography. WW Norton & Company, 1997. p20 (currently cited in article)
 * So the article does not fail our core content policies (WP:CCPOL): V, NPOV, NOR. Also, as the subject is covered in many sources, it seems to me to be encyclopedic. I understand there is debate over this subject, especially in cases like King and Johnson where the individual had limited influence on their son's life, but I see an article like this as worth having. Smmurphy(Talk) 18:24, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
 * See my above response to Icewhiz. <b style="color:#009900">SNUGGUMS</b> (<b style="color:#009900">talk</b> / <b style="color:#009900">edits</b>) 23:45, 26 March 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete -- NOTINHERITED. Some months ago we deleted an article on the father of Prime Minister Theresa May.  I see not more reason why this man should inherit notability from his very notable son than anyone else.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:39, 27 March 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.