Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jalat Khan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete --Leivick (talk) 01:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Jalat Khan

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WP:Cricket has developed criteria to indicate what WP:Athlete means in the context of cricket at WP:CRIN. For a modern-era player they should have played in a first-class, List A or official Twenty20 match. Whilst this player has played for a national side, he has not played any of those forms of cricket, hence fails the notability criteria as agreed by consensus at WP:Cricket and therefore fails WP:Athlete. Andrew nixon (talk) 07:15, 14 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete for reasons mentioned in my nomination. Andrew nixon (talk) 07:16, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Cricket-related deletion discussions.   —Andrew nixon (talk) 07:19, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Note that I would like to have this article kept if the notability criteria were changed. My opinion is that anyone who has played for a national side at any level should be notable, but WP:Athlete does not mention anything about national sides, so under current criteria, this should go. Andrew nixon (talk) 13:18, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. I think that excluding members of national teams was probably an error on the part of WP:Cricket participants, and there is enough discretion in the notability rules to allow us to consider this player notable. --Eastmain (talk) 15:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Note that WP:Athlete also doesn't mention members of national teams, not just us at WP:Cricket Andrew nixon (talk) 16:29, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. I think the terms of WP:CRIN are sufficient and so an international player must have been involved in major cricket at first-class, ListA or official Twenty20 level. Not all ICC associate members meet the criteria yet.  Affiliate and non-affiliate members fall well short of the required standard.  Whereas all international teams are notable in that they represent their countries, their team members are not notable per se unless they are notable in their own right.  In WP:NM, this is made clear thus: Members of notable bands are not given individual articles unless they have demonstrated notability for activity independent of the band.  BlackJack | talk page 15:49, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Agree with User:BlackJack: individuals are notable if they've played at the highest level; national teams are notable per se; individuals who have played for national teams are notable if the team has competed at the highest level. Johnlp (talk) 20:46, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
 * What match did he play for Afghanistan ? His name doesn't appear in Cricketarchive. CA has a list of 85 matches of all sorts that Afghans played. I went through the list of players in all tournaments but couldn't find his name, or anything very similar. His name appears in some news articles like this, but if you go to the tournament page, there are fifteen players who appeared for Afghanistan, but Jalat (and a couple of others) are not there. Tintin 05:17, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I think it's probably this guy as he was born in 1980 and the name Naseer is similar to the Naseri stated in the article. Very confusing.  BlackJack | talk page 05:31, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * But CI has Jalat Khan as left-arm fast and WK. This guy is RMF. Tintin 05:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm baffled. I think it fails verification and I wonder if CI has got the name wrong again, as with Sukumaran?  BlackJack | talk page 05:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Left-arm fast and WK is a pretty odd combination of talents! Johnlp (talk) 20:01, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * If he can do both simultaneously, he'll be notable in no time at all. Now that's what I call an all-rounder. --Dweller (talk) 21:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong delete - Just for comparison, a couple of folks from the Uganda team ran away and came to Australia as refugees while they were in Australia for a tournament (Patrick Ochan and Jimmy Okello). They played in B-grade cricket in Adelaide, so they were in the 2nd tier of local suburban cricket. Now Uganda won the 3rd division in world cricket in 2007 and were promoted to second division. Afghanistan has only just been promoted from 5th to 4th division in world cricket, two levels below Uganda. So Afghanistan cricket is below 2nd tier suburban cricket and would probably be 3rd or 4th division, which is about the same level as a high school player.  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 08:04, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Not notable. --Dweller (talk) 13:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Anyone participating here should be aware that agreement was recently made reaffirming the message on the WP:BIO page that should any person meet the WP:N criteria, i.e. independent sourcing etc. and fail any subcategory of a Wikiproject. A person's notability cannot be removed by means of the wikiproject declaring their level of competition too low. SHould the two references on this player's page establish his notability then this article cannot be deleted per the WP:CRIN criteria. BigHairRef | Talk 07:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Response. I have an issue about your statement that the two references might establish the player's notability.  I would point out that the second reference in the article is re "the other Jalat Khan", so it is irrelevant and should be edited out if the article is kept.  The first reference is verifiable, true enough, but its credibility has to be called into question when it describes Afghanistan as a "major team", which it most certainly is not, and given the comments above about the accuracy of the source in terms of this particular player.  Are you suggesting that the mere fact of this page establishes his notability when it is clear to people who are knowledgeable about the subject that he fails WP:ATHLETE completely, let alone WP:CRIN?  If Jalat Khan is notable on the strength of this dubious CricInfo entry, then anyone whose name is on the internet must be notable.


 * There are two conditions in WP:ATHLETE as follows:


 * Competitors who have competed in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis.
 * Competitors who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports.


 * Jalat Khan has NOT competed in a fully professional league. Even if we give him the benefit of the doubt by allowing that there are no fully professional leagues in Afghanistan, neither has he taken part in "any competition of equivalent standing" because there is no first-class or List A cricket in Afghanistan. He is an amateur player, which does not exclude him from cricket's professional competitions, but he has not competed at the highest levels which are summarised in Major cricket.  Afghanistan may be a national team but it is only an affiliate (i.e., minor or developing) member of the ICC and does not compete at the highest levels.


 * Finally, I do not see how WP:CRIN can be ignored in practice. The notability of a cricketer can only be established by reference to members of WP:CRIC and they will invariably refer to WP:CRIN when forming a view.  If cricket project members had not taken part in this discussion, then people who are ignorant of the sport would probably have waved Jalat Khan through on the basis of the CricInfo page without reference to the actual status of himself or the Afghan team.  BlackJack | talk page 09:12, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
 * I neither said WP:CRIN should be ignored nor that I thought him to be notable (and indeed nor do I think him non notable) and to be honest you're adding meanings in to my statement which weren't there.


 * I will reiterate what I said which was that WP:ATHLETE and any WP:CRIN criteria are additional criteria to WP:N and if they do not meet either criteria but do pass WP:N then they should not be deleted. NOtbaility does not depend on any sinlge WP which can assist with knowledge of certain areas lacked by others, but if there are various independant sources to establish notability then an article should not be deleted by failing to meet another additional criteria such as WP:ATHLETE as it says at the top of WP:BIO. BigHairRef | Talk 23:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)


 * I think you are confusing the issue. Although you have no firm view on this person's notability, could you please indicate what there is in the article that may infer notability?  BlackJack | talk page 06:09, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Whether or not my point makes it harder to make a decision is not the issue. The nom mentioned it failed WP:ATHLETE and at least one other person gave a failure to pass the same guideline as being their reasons for deletion. Both are not valid reasons on their own.


 * He may well be non-notable due to his level of international competition, however if the two sources are sufficently verifiable and relevant to establish notability, failure to pass any additional guideline on WP:BIO is not a valid policy reason to delete. BigHairRef | Talk 14:35, 22 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.