Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jameel Dumas


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Jayjg (talk) 02:18, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

Jameel Dumas

 * – ( View AfD View log ) •

Never played professionally, fails WP:ATH and WP:NSPORT.  Eagles   24/7  (C)  20:25, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions.  --  Eagles   24/7   (C)  20:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  --  Eagles   24/7   (C)  20:28, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

*Delete - Sorry, but I don't see the "solid widespread coverage" that Paulmcdonald mentioned. If someone finds and adds suitable sources to the article, I will reconsider, or if there is additional coverage in the future the article can be re-created. cmadler (talk) 13:32, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Preliminary comment/question. There have been 10 college football players nominated for deletion in a 20-minute span today by Eagles247.  It will take time to research each of these.  Can you confirm that, before nominating, you reviewed the google news hits to determine whether these players had sufficient coverage while playing college ball to meet general notability standards? Cbl62 (talk) 20:49, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep Okay, I thought I was going to go delete on this one, but I checked the news and this guy had articles written about him in papers all over the US for his college ball. Solid widespread coverage--he's in.--Paul McDonald (talk) 23:05, 8 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete: Fails WP:NSPORT, no evidence of national news articles describing the subject in significant detail.  Ravenswing  17:37, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * NSPORTS is not an exclusionary standard. A college football player who "fails" NSPORTS is not excluded from Wikipedia. It is one of the ways to be included. A college football player who never plays professional football still gets included if he/she has non-trivial coverage (i.e., more than passing references in game coverage) in the mainstream media sufficient to satisfy GNG. There is no requirement that such coverage be from the "national" media. While I agree in some cases that limited coverage in a single, small-town paper may not suffice, here we have multiple feature stories in major metropolitan newspapers in New Jersey and New York states., including the The Post-Standard, Syracuse Herald American, and Home News Tribune. There are also articles from The Daily Orange and Our Sports Central.  Though less meaty, there's also a Sports Illustrated article that has some brief discussion of Dumas.  Cbl62 (talk) 15:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. I haven't had a chance to research the news coverage yet.  However, Mandsford raised a question at the Byron Hardmon AfD about whether playing in NFL Europa qualifies as fully professional.  WP:NSPORT recognizes the USFL, CFL,and Arena Football League as fully professonal, rejects AF2 and makes no mention of NFL Europa.  I don't know how the level of play in NFL Europa compares with the CFL or Arena Football League, but we should probably have an express ruling on that.  Mandsford asserts that NFL Europa should be the same as fully professional baseball and basketball leagues outside of the United States. Says Mandsford: "The six teams of NFL Europe not only represented the highest level of American football in Germany and other nations at the time, but were also comparable (or higher) to the quality of play in the Canadian and Arena leagues."  This may be something to be taken up at WP:NSPORT. Cbl62 (talk) 20:12, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Reply: It's generally held, across the board, that the "top-level international leagues" which usually represent the basic devolved NSPORTS criteria presupposes that the sport in question is of major stature in the particular countries. However much a cricket league in the United States, an ice hockey league in Japan or a basketball league in England might be the highest level of those sports in those nations, no one holds their players to be de facto notable.   Ravenswing  21:04, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * See List of leagues of American football, which lists NFL Europe under this category.  Eagles   24/7  (C)  21:24, 9 November 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. Even though injuries cut his career short and prevented him from being an NFL player, a college player passes general notability standards if he has had significant, non-trivial coverage in the mainstream media.  Dumas has tons of news coverage from his college years.  He was the top defensive player for Syracuse, and there are more than a dozen feature stories about him from major daily newspapers from his time as a college football player.  This is not "typical" news coverage for a college player.  There are other college players currently up for AfD (e.g., Charles Missant and Wade Betschart) where I have voted "delete" precisely because there is not significant news coverage like this.  I have completely re-written the article and integrated many of those sources into the article.  In light of this news coverage, the article is a "Keep." Cbl62 (talk) 07:31, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Very weak keep - I took another look at the article after Cbl62 reworked it last night. Of the online sources, only one appears to be non-trivial with regard to Dumas, and that's this one from the Syracuse student newspaper. There are a bunch of offline sources, regarding which I have to just AGF. But I have to guess that, among those 15 offline sources, there are at least one or two that are non-trivial, to go with the one online. It's weak, but I'm changing my !vote to "keep". (Sorry, forgot to sign! cmadler (talk) 15:41, 10 November 2010 (UTC))
 * There are actually multiple feature stories about him in The Post-Standard, Syracuse Herald American, The Star-Ledger and Watertown Daily Times. These articles are available on-line (with subscription) through newspapers.com.  They include in-depth coverage of Dumas.  For example, the article,  "DEFINING SEASON: JAMEEL DUMAS; Linebacker's back for a fresh start", fills a half-page of the paper.  The article, "Dumas aches to play: The SU linebacker aspires to play in the NFL, but an injury sidelines him" is a full column from top to bottom of the page.  References 3, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 22 and 24 are all substantial feature stories that are about Dumas.  Though shorter, many of the other articles cited in the article (30 in all) are also stories that focus on Dumas as the subject.  That is an extraordinary level of coverage for a college player and clearly passes the general notability threshold. Cbl62 (talk) 15:37, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * If they're available online (even behind a paywall), can you add links? Also, can you either give (a) link(s) or more bibliographical information for the Post-Herald? I can't figure out what newspaper that is, where it's based, etc. cmadler (talk) 15:45, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, the way newspaperarchive.com works, you can't link directly to an article. I've tried in the past and it just takes you to the main site. The site is http://newspaperarchive.com/.  The Post-Standard was founded in 1829 and is the major metropolitan newspaper for Syracuse, New York. It is one of the 100 largest papers in the USA..  The Syracuse metropolitan area has a population of 732,117,which is larger than the population of 60 countries (including Iceland and Belize).    Cbl62 (talk) 16:10, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I figured out The Post-Standard, but what is The Post-Herald? cmadler (talk) 16:36, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Not certain about this, but I think there may have a period around the Syracuse Herald-Journal folded in 2001 when the papers may have been combined. Cbl62 (talk) 16:38, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think that's it, because the Post-Standard and Post-Herald articles cited in this article are from the same time period. The only Post-Herald I can find on that newspaperarchive.com website is the Buckley (WV) Post-Herald, which went out of business in 1977(?), so that wouldn't be it. There's also a Post-Herald in Birmingham, Alabama, but I'd be surprised if that's it either. A search on newspaperarchive.com for "Jameel Dumas" did not turn up any articles from any Post-Herald. Can you double-check where those came from? cmadler (talk) 16:58, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll check tonight. The other possibility is that I mis-cited the newspaper as "Post-Herald" when it was actually "Post-Standard."  If so, I'll fix it tonight.  I'm glad to have introduced you to newspaperarchive.com.  It has full coverage of a lot of newspapers not found on google news; their yearly subscription is actually a pretty good deal if you do a fair amount of research. Maybe some day, Google will buy newspaperarchive and it will all be searchable in one place. Cbl62 (talk) 17:52, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
 * I fixed the cites. Somehow, I typed "Post-Herald" when it should have been "Post-Standard"


 * Delete: Not a very notable athlete.  WAYNE  OLAJUWON  22:03, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The question isn't whether he's "very" notable. Multiple feature stories in the mainstream media means he's notable.  The comment is similar to Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions, but worse yet, "Just not very notable." Cbl62 (talk) 22:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Wizardman  Operation Big Bear 02:17, 16 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.