Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James A. Eshelman


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. —Tom Morris (talk) 22:44, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

James A. Eshelman

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Does not meet either general notability guideline or notability guideline for biographies, due to fundamental lack of significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Yworo (talk) 03:09, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 13:35, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Magic-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 13:38, 5 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep per WP:AUTHOR. This author has been writing books on these topics since the 1970's, and is considered an expert in both Sidereal Astrology and Thelemic Magic. His books are highly sought after. One title when it went out of print was selling for more than $1000. Article is important to a community of people interested in the topic the author writes about, this is an important resource. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Augurone (talk • contribs) 19:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC) — Augurone (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * You have not addressed the actual notability issue. We require "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." If the subject is notable, these should be easily found. From the sources provided, subject does not appear to meet any point of WP:AUTHOR. To establish that he does, again, independent third-party reliable sources must support one or more of the points listed. Yworo (talk) 20:13, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Yworo, You keep deleting 3rd party references, and you are constricting terms. The Thelemic community is not so broad, but within it James A. Eshleman is important as is much so as Grady McMurtry, Phyllis Seckler, David Shoemaker, Aleister Crowley. Do you have a problem with Jim? this link * More on the Caliphate Elections along with this link * Caliphate Election Transcript are third party sources. Published by a legitimate 3rd party * Poetry. Re-published by a 3rd party * Article on Liber AL. Publishing industry sites referencing Jim's work * Author Profile, * Velvet Books
 * You have apparently not read our guidelines on what constitutes a reliable source and what is allowed to be externally linked. Personal webpages, blogs, forums, event announcements, press releases, and self-published material of any sort are not reliable sources. Blogs, forums, livejournal and such content may not even be linked in the external links section. I have left in all the additions you have made which are reliable sources or allowed external links. You are simply dredging the web, that's not where you will find reliable sources. Yworo (talk) 22:49, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * P. R. Koenig's site is a polemic anti-OTO site. This means it cannot be trusted as a reliable source. Since Eshelman is no longer an OTO member, if you can find the same sort of documentation on the official OTO site, that would be an acceptable source. Yworo (talk) 22:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Goodreads and Librarything are based on user-submitted content. Also not considered to be reliable sources. Yworo (talk) 22:55, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The Velvet Books source is a copy of a previous version of this very Wikipedia article, and therefore also not a reliable source. Yworo (talk) 23:12, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * If you disagree or have further questions about what constitutes a reliable source or want an independent opinions, ask at the reliable sources noticeboard. Yworo (talk) 22:57, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 01:19, 12 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Weak Delete - While I can see that this individual may be important to a select group of people, there's just not enough WP:RS available for him to be kept under WP:AUTHOR's guidelines. Lithorien (talk) 01:43, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete per nominator and Lithorien, above. And WP:TOOSOON. JFHJr (㊟) 02:21, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and above; I looked into it earlier but didn't find anything useful to save the article. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 06:23, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete. Trouble with Occultism and Thelema is that no one takes it very seriously, so one tends to bash it too readily.  Cutting through that, it doesn't look like we get to sufficient notability, although I accept that publishing a few books may be as close as one gets to being the Nobel laureate in this field. --Legis (talk - contribs) 09:53, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete: Notability has still not been shown. SL93 (talk) 22:38, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.