Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James Eagan Holmes


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Snow Keep. Mark Arsten (talk) 04:54, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

James Eagan Holmes
AfDs for this article: 
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Holmes has no notability outside the shooting, the article on him needs to be deleted! The article is in Violation of WP:BLP1E the fact that he is the Sole Suspect of the Aurora 2012 Shooting makes him not eligible for a stand-alone article WP:BLP1E is equal to anybody alife or death! To my understanding and logic if a victim is not eligible for an article then the suspect is neither! Fox2k11 (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC) -- As Submitter of this AFD I don't know if possible but I like to declare that i Revoke the Submitting of this AFD and the article should stay! --Fox2k11 (talk) 23:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)


 * — Fox2k11 (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. WWGB (talk) 03:25, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Obvious keep - BLP1E has to be the most misunderstood policy on Wikipedia. Suffice to say, this article does not violate that policy, and this nomination has zero chance of being successful. --Bongwarrior (talk) 02:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 02:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 02:42, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment - This person is only known for the shooting in aurora nothing more nothing less a clear Violation of WP:BLP1E also NOT and Notability_(people) Fox2k11 (talk) 02:54, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment This has been discussed, and you (Fox2k11) have failed to read the discussions. Mark David Chapman has an article, and he is only known for killing John Lennon and reading the Catcher in the Rye.  Why haven't you, Fox2k11, marked that for deletion, too? Thelema418 (talk) 05:37, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Let's avoid the other stuff exists arguments, they weaken your keep argument rather than support it. Ryan Vesey 05:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I am asking anyone who wishes to mark this for deletion to be thorough in the exercise of what they are doing. Thelema418 (talk) 05:47, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:BLP1E and WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. This person is only known for their alleged crimes, nothing else. Northamerica1000(talk) 02:45, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. The subject satisfies the criteria at WP:PERPETRATOR in that "the execution of the crime is unusual—or has otherwise been considered noteworthy". He is allegedly responsible for one of the "worst shootings in U.S. history" . The arguments presented at Talk:James Eagan Holmes/Archive 1 are also relevant here. WWGB (talk) 03:21, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. For all the aforementioned reasons. This was already discussed on talk pages for the article, and I think Fox2k11 has overstepped all reason in nominating this article for deletion. Thelema418 (talk) 05:29, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Can we get the template put up that says this is not a flat vote? I'm sure there'll be plenty of new contributors here.  Can we try to be active in inviting them to continue editing as well?  FWIW I'll be !voting Keep sooner or later if this isn't snowed, it'll just take some time to write up a rationale so I'll take a day or two. Ryan Vesey 05:33, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, this particular issue is presented that way. Obviously, people are working on this article.  Rather than posting commentary in the TALK section, this individual marked the article for deletion. It's RUDE, but I'll just vote to KEEP the article.  Thelema418 (talk) 05:43, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * If I start seeing people just throwing out Delete and Keep votes with "per the others" or are just simple Vote type comments I will place the template up top. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:15, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment - I already posted in the talk section of the shooting page and I also posted in the talk page of this article and asked why he has his page but it's not allowed for any victim to have a sole page for them so why he? oh yes right he is the Alleged "perpetrator" so let's get him a Wikipedia article with flying colors and get the others an ass kick I.m.h.o no criminal should get a wikipedia page no matter if he killed 12 unknown people or just shoot John Lennon like mentioned above it doesn't matter and i don't care if this deletion request Fails or not at least i can say "I tried it" WP:BLP1E says nope no article for non-notable persons but then there is WP:PERPETRATOR to Annul this Great...just great... *sigh* Fox2k11 (talk) 11:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * You could as well ask why is there an article about Hitler, but not about the millions of people that died in the concentration camps. It's an emotional question that has no place when assessing the notability of something. After all, dying itself is not a notable act, since we all do it sooner or later, and getting killed by someone isn't either (at least most of the time). On the other hand, if you do something just horrible enough you will gain enough notoriety and notability to be the subject of books, movies, documentaries and, yes, Wikipedia articles. That's the way it is, and has been for thousands of years. You better deal with it, because neither you, nor anyone else on this planet can change it. (Lord Gøn (talk) 14:19, 17 August 2012 (UTC))
 * Comparing Holmes with Hitler is just stupid Hitler is indeed Notably but Holmes is not! Fox2k11 (talk) 14:40, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I did not compare Holmes with Hitler. I know very well that Hitler's pesence permeates history quite a bit stronger than Holmes', but that's totally besides the point I was trying to make. What I wanted to say was that argumenting from an emotional point of view like you did is totally useless when trying to evaluate the notability of anything, so you could as well have asked why is there an article about Hitler (certainly notable), but not the (mostly not notable) victims of his folly. It is a totally meaningless question in this regard. But ok, you say that Holmes is not notable, nor is any other criminal, but that is your point of view and in the big picture it does not matter, because notability is not a dependent of a single person, but those of many, though not necessarily of the majority.
 * Anyway, don't you think that saying no criminal should get an article on Wikipedia, even if he was or is the subject of continuous media coverage like Mark Chapman, is a little bit absolutist? I mean, certainly you would agree that a criminal who killed a million people by, say, detonationg a nuclear bomb in a major city should be the subject of his own article, even if he was notable for nothing else. And if you agree to that, you may excuse if I ask the question how many people has somebody to kill in your eyes to warrant his own article? If a million is enough, is 100,000 also? What about 1000, 100, or 10? Though, in the end the number doesn't really matter, as even a single murder can make you notable – certainly this is the case with Gavrilo Princip (ok, double murder), or Lee Harvey Oswald. (Lord Gøn (talk) 15:37, 17 August 2012 (UTC))
 * No, my point is that it doesn't matter how many you killed if there is an article about the crime one has Commited it's fine when the perpetrator is mentioned there but why has there a full article of the perpetrator including what he did before and what his background are? is that Really Necessary? Fox2k11 (talk) 18:44, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Just to make sure I understand you correctly, you think the social background of somebody who killed a million people would be irrelevant and not of interest and shouldn't be covered in detail? Then how do you think should we understand the motivation of anybody, if we disregard his life previous to his crime? Isn't it the purpose of a biography to get a fuller understanding of a person, to maybe find a hint somewhere in his personal history that might explain why he acted how he acted, did what he did? (Lord Gøn (talk) 22:53, 17 August 2012 (UTC))
 * sorry for my late reply was kinda busy.. I agree with what you said above but currently there is nothing about Holmes that would meet that criteria you stated above since not much is known about him what i wanted to say was is it really necessary to know what his childhood was or what he did years before the shooting? Fox2k11 (talk) 03:00, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * I can only speak on behalf of myself, of course, but yes, I would say that it is necessary to show what he did prior to the shooting, especially the most basic information, like where he went to school etc., should be present even in a remotely complete biography. And a lot of psychologists would be wasting their time trying to uncover the childhood of serial and mass murderers, if it weren't important in the context of their crimes. Knowning what a person went through in his life may help to understand why things went the way they did.(Lord Gøn (talk) 12:28, 21 August 2012 (UTC))
 * Point Taken =) Fox2k11 (talk) 16:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep. For no other reason then there was already a merge discussion and the merge proposal failed. Why discuss it again. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 05:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep. For aforementioned reasons. The subject's accused crime is a "well-documented historic event" and will likely become even more of one. Jenrzzz (talk) 11:46, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * delete for now currently this article is needless trivia about Holme's past (heres what his high-school summer internship mentor thought of him!), and a content fork of the main shooting article. Certainly over time sufficient true encyclopedic matierial may be available to deserve a full article, but that time is not now. Gaijin42 (talk) 14:00, 17 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep. As it says, WP:BLP1E should be applied only to low-profile individuals, and after about a month of continuous worldwide news coverage about his person, I'd say it would be quite a stretch of the term to call Holmes still low-profile. Furthermore, you don't need a crystal ball to know with quite a bit of certainty that intermittent reporting about him will continue at least as long as his trial is ongoing, which will in all probability be for another year or two, as similar cases have shown repeatedly. And you may call WP:OSE all you want, but there are articles about Jared Loughner, Nidal Hasan, Robert Bales and numerous other mass shooters, and as the aforementioned guideline states:
 * When used correctly though, these comparisons are important as the encyclopedia should be consistent in the content that it provides or excludes.
 * So, may I ask, why should we treat Holmes any different than all those other mass murderers and mass murder suspects? (Lord Gøn (talk) 14:19, 17 August 2012 (UTC))


 * Keep: This should be a "no brainer" and I cannot understand for a moment why anyone on policy grounds would suggest this article be deleted. Improve it by all means but there is no valid reason to delete it. Afterwriting (talk) 14:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Just because one has a different view and opinion on an Article doesn't make one a "no brainer" any user on wikipedia has the right nominate an article for something (f.e. Deletion) this is why we have this discussion here! Fox2k11 (talk) 18:54, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe so, but in this case it should be an obvious "no brainer". The arguments for deletion are clearly erroneous. Afterwriting (talk) 19:01, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, "any user on wikipedia has the right [to] nominate an article", even when they only have a two-week editing history and only edit articles related to the 2012 Aurora shooting. We are sooo democratic ... WWGB (talk) 05:58, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
 * And you started your Account with an fully Bloomed editing History? Yes My editing history is only about related articles

and just like any user who created an account in good faith started with something I will commit myself to an project once i find one I am interested to create or edit! if you have an issue with me you know where my talk page is ok? thanks!Fox2k11 (talk) 13:06, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep *Sigh* I just knew that an AfD would pop up sooner or later for this article, my opinion is though that this article is not likely going to be deleted at the very least a redirect would be in place as the suspect goes without dispute with the 2012 Aurora shooting event per the sources. After redirect comes the option of a merge which was discussed here: Talk:James Eagan Holmes/Archive 1. The merge result ended in no consensus but as an editor pointed out showed the arguements for each issue brought forward. So that leaves Keep which in my opinion is the right thing to do here, Holmes is a high profile person with enough coverage to warrent a seperate article, See also: Who is a low profile individual. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 21:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - article subject part of a significant event. And are as a person still notable himself individually. end of story.--BabbaQ (talk) 22:26, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep This article about Holmes obviously qualifies under the guidelines of WP:Notability.--Franz Brod (talk) 04:13, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Both the person and the event are world infamous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thetalkingheads (talk • contribs) 23:21, 18 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - BLP1E lists three conditions for *not* having an article, and says that all three should be met in order for it to apply and the article to thus be improper. Holmes easily does not meet the second and the third criteria.  Thus BLP1E does not apply, and this should be kept. - TexasAndroid (talk) 03:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Per WP:PERP, The crime and suspect are unusual and subject to continuing coverage. DocTree (ʞlɐʇ) (cont) Join WER 16:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep - While he is known for only one event, it is not simply a "news event", but rather a historically significant event due to the severity of his actions.  Debating the existence of this article feels more like debating the nuances of Wikipedia's rules - incorrectly, at that, since this article only meets one of three criteria for deletion via the BLP1E reference listed by the original challenger - when this article is clearly of great significance to the many individuals who are visiting this page every day, checking for updates to it.  I would say that even if Wikipedia's rules, for whatever reason, did permit the deletion of this article, that the bold and proper thing to do would be to change the rules, not delete this page.  All of that aside, this article does not meet the criteria of deletion via BLP1E.  Keep.  Pritchard 00:07, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete not notable outside of 2012 Aurora shooting and apart from the initial news item is zero notability outside of the USA. MilborneOne (talk) 17:38, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * We don't require international notability, Sjoerd Winkens is obviously notable, but probably has zero notability outside of the Netherlands. Ryan Vesey 18:20, 19 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete It gives the impression that he is guilty, and he hasn't been convicted. Maybe if there was more information explaining why he is a suspect, it would be a more appropriate article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.229.18.139 (talk) 23:41, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
 * — 71.229.18.139 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. WWGB (talk) 01:09, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * This sounds more like a reason to modify the article rather than delete it.Pritchard 00:07, 20 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment I just noticed that the original challenger of this article's existence also stated that if a victim can't have a Wikipedia article, neither should the suspect. Victims of crimes do have their own articles.  Unfortunately, victims are often tossed to the wayside by media and other news sources.  Unless a particular victim stands apart from the crowd, it is unlikely that they will receive special attention.  However, if there is sufficient information available to create a quality article, go forth and create one.  Pritchard 00:13, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes thats right I started a Stub on "Jessica Ghawi" (see the talk page) and Raised Vailid points (sources) that she is like you say "stands apart from the crowd" but the stub has been reverted due to WP:BLP1E so i came to the conclusion that an article about the suspect falls into to the same "BLP1E" Rule but it Seems i either understand WP:BLP1E wrong or my sources are not enough (not valid) to notably lift her up from the crowd! Fox2k11 (talk) 02:49, 21 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep This article clearly does not meet criteria for deletion. Even though Holmes is just a suspect, the shooting is a noteworthy incident that made national, if not international headlines. There are plenty of other persons who had articles on them while suspects in high-profile criminal cases as well as somewhat less noteworthy cases than this. I recommend this article be kept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Austin023 (talk • contribs) 04:22, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep for reasons already stated by others. Wikfr (talk) 20:11, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - per WP:PERP, the crime/motive could be considered unusual, and according to WP:BLP1E, it must be all three criteria, though only one could be met, and that is the first one. The second one doesn't work because he's still awaiting trial; the third one doesn't apply because the event itself is significant.  Zappa  O  Mati   21:47, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - Meets notability requirements no matter how you cut it. Should be a speedy keep, but may as well let process run its course. --CrunchySkies (talk) 10:08, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.