Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James J. Stanford


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Michig (talk) 07:38, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

James J. Stanford

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Fails WP:SOLDIER. Nothing in his bio makes him particularly notable Gbawden (talk) 11:48, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
 * James J. Stanford is notable under two sections of WP:SOLDIER.
 * He played an important role in a significant military event (the Laotian Civil War);
 * He made a material contribution to military science that is indisputably attributed to him (a functional forward air control system to manage Operation Barrel Roll and Operation Steel Tiger). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Georgejdorner (talk • contribs) 14:44, 17 July 2015


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Clarkcj12 (talk) 13:10, 17 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:36, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Aviation-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:36, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:36, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mz7 (talk) 05:49, 24 July 2015 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Davewild (talk) 06:50, 31 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom for failing WP:SOLDIER, WP:BIO and WP:GNG. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:38, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * To repeat the provisions of WP:SOLDIER that were ignored above:
 * "5. Played an important role in a significant military event;" (the Laotian Civil War)
 * "7. Made a material contribution to military science that is indisputably attributed to them;" (founded a forward air control system that was a major constituent of that war).
 * The end result of his action was the founding of the heaviest bombing campaign ever directed at a single nation, directed by Stanford's successors, the Raven Forward Air Controllers.
 * As for GNG&mdash;there are six reliable significant sources independent of the subject listed as textual references on Stanford.Georgejdorner (talk) 16:58, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * No, he didn't play an "important role".
 * Nowhere does it say he "founded a forward air control system" or that, if he did, it was an advance on any other such system.
 * Nowhere does it say a "bombing campaign" resulted from his action.
 * None of the references are about him specifically. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Try "Stanford had demonstrated the necessity for forward air control in Laos; his successors were the Raven Forward Air Controllers. The resulting air campaigns would drop about the same tonnage of bombs on Laos as were dropped during World War II." Direct quote from the lead section. I am going to add a bit of emphasis to this in the original. Details of these assertions follow in the body of the article.
 * The body of the article also describes his forward air control activities. It is clear he is the first forward air controller in the country except for the flying visit by the air control team for Operation Triangle. It is obvious he had to have set it up. Are you sure you have read this article? Thoroughly?Georgejdorner (talk) 16:44, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Raven Forward Air Controllers disagrees with you: "Two of the Butterfly Air Force combat controllers were Master Sergeant Charles Larimore Jones, soon joined by Technical Sergeant James J. Stanford." (bolding mine) That article also doesn't ascribe any particular significance to that fact either. Even if Stanford were first, how is being the first to implement it in a country a notable advancement. Demonstrating the necessity also doesn't qualify. Did he invent forward air control or a new type of it? That would be notable. Clarityfiend (talk) 21:57, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, yes, Charles Larimore Jones and Stanford teamed up to begin a forward air control system. Even as Sir Arthur Harris, 1st Baronet began a strategic bombing campaign in WWII. Neither effort was wholly original in conception; both campaigns ended with about the same tonnage of bombs dropped; both campaigns are notable.
 * And thank you for calling the shortcoming of Raven FACs to my attention. I intend to add the significance of the Lao bombing campaign soonest.Georgejdorner (talk) 04:27, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Comments needed, lest we're forced to relist indefinitely or make a procedural close that nobody particularly likes. Thanks! –  Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 01:08, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep Enough reliable sources to write an article about him, so passes WP:GNG. Passes WP:SOLDIER by playing a significant part in an important event. Accept that he contributed to the development of forward air control. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:13, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –  Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 01:08, 8 August 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.