Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/James W. Gay


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:46, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

James W. Gay

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Created in 2011 by a WP:SPA, who also uploaded the images found in the article, it has has only one peripheral reference. Searches are complicated by the common name of the subject. After trying to clean up embedded edits riffing on the name ("Gay"), and searching for references, I conclude it fails WP:GNG and WP:BIO as it lacks significant coverage in reliable sources. Geoff &#124; Who, me? 16:55, 15 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete I tried several different searches to find reliable sources, and the only thing I found was a short blurb about this fellow giving a gun from the Battle of Little Big Horn to a state historical society. Definitely not enough coverage to make an article out of, which makes me wonder how much of this page is original research or oral family history. PohranicniStraze (talk) 18:45, 15 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete (possible hoax) I've had some fun Googling for the poem. Here (p.86) it is in 1899 in an opinion piece on osteopathy. Here it is attributed to "Prince of Quacks" Dr. Francis Tumblety, circa 1860, who sounds like quite a character, and who Wikipedia says "earned a small fortune posing as an "Indian Herb" doctor throughout the United States and Canada", similar to James W. Gay who "was a herbal Indian medicine man". Our article also says he moved to St Louis, Missouri, while James W. Gay "joined the Pawnees on the Missouri River". Between these overlaps and the absence of accessible sources, my suspicion is that this is a hoax.


 * I see there's a 90 page book about him, which was the only source in the first version of the article. The as edited by the article creator, one day later, dropped the book but tried citing the home pages of various Indian tribes, plus http://www.crystalinks.com/, a "metaphysics and science" page, plus the remaining Andersonville Prison reference, which doesn't include the words "Gay" or "Clothier" (his original name) at all. All very odd. Either way, I can't find online sources to back up any claim about him, so it should be deleted for failing WP:V. Mortee (talk) 20:18, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Since the "Clothier" name was added in, I think it can safely be ignored. Mortee (talk) 20:28, 15 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Delet extraordinary claims require extraordinary sources. THis is an example of sloppily written articles that make all sorts of claims with no basis in fact. There are two levels of hoaxing that seem to be potentially going on, and no sources to indicate which one it is. On one level James W. Gay may be a 21st-century invention. Nothing in our current sources indicates otherwise. On the other level, he may have invented a false history of himself in the 19th-century. Rachel Dolezal was not the first Euro-American person to falsely claim non-European ancestry. Many, many people either made such a claim in the 19th-century, or covered up their Afircan roots with false native ancestry claims. Some have traced some of this to attempts by those in the southern US to bolster their rights to hold other people in subjecgation in part by bolstering their political power with deep claims of right to the area by claiming a connection to pre-European inhabitiants. In Gay's case, assuming that he is not just a 21-st century invention, false claims of Native American roots would have bolstered his credentials to practice alternative medicine. However as has been pointed out we essentially lack any sources that show anything about Gay.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:11, 15 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete I don't think it is a hoax as i think this is his prison record and if you read the preview of the book it gives a couple of autobiographical pages. However there does not seem to be any sources to suggest he is notable. Mattg82 (talk) 01:34, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Illinois-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Kansas-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:09, 16 January 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment I have to agree that as it is written we need much more sources otherwise this looks like original research. However, this is the kind of article that fits well with Wikipedia.  If proper sources can be found, I say keep it.  If not, it should be deleted.  Perhaps an enthusiastic editor will agree to take custody of the article and Userfy until it can be properly sourced?--Paul McDonald (talk) 14:34, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Weak delete - on newspapers.com I find a few things. One, I find a James W. Gay who was an opinionated doctor in Illinois in the late 1890s. I find a Dr. James W. Gay who was Ojibwe living in Winfield, Kansas and predicting floods. I find a newspaper ad for probably the same person also in Winfield. Also in Winfield a Dr. James W. Gay participated in a veterans event. I find that note about him giving a rifle to a historic association.This is enough to me to think that while Gay may have been involved in hoaxes, the hoax is not on us, so to speak. I also found an article about an orphan son of an Indian agent in the 1850s named James W. Gay, which might be an interesting lead on this individual's early life. That said, I agree that the details in this article fail WP:V and WP:OR. I do not think there is enough from what I've found on newspapers.com (linked above), on google books, or elsewhere that would allow for an article to be written that clearly does not fail these policies. I would support userfication if someone thought they could clean things up and would be happy to assist, but I do not think I would succeed at such a task with what I've found. Smmurphy(Talk) 23:49, 16 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Impressive! I can't view any of the newspapers.com results but now I'm tempted to buy a subscription just to go squirrelling. Thank you for the digging you've done. Mortee (talk) 01:39, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Check out WP:TWL, wikipedia editors with 6+ months and 500+ edits are usually eligible for free accounts with a number of great resources. My favorites are newspapers.com and ProjectMUSE (I am the coordinator with ProjectMUSE - which gives full access to many books by academic publishers). Another newspaper site that is less user-friendly but similar in size with accounts available is newspaperarchive.com. I could go on about some of the other great resources, feel free to ask if you (anyone) have any questions. Smmurphy(Talk) 02:17, 17 January 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.