Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jamie Muhoberac


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Guerillero Parlez Moi 10:56, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Jamie Muhoberac

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

One source is from the synthesizer company Moog Music and definitely not a reliable source, the other is an interview with the artist's daughter which doesn't even mention him by name. Found no reliable coverage. QuietHere (talk) 10:05, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians and United States of America. QuietHere (talk) 10:05, 26 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Third source added which only mentions Muhoberac by name once, still doesn't cover notability. QuietHere (talk) 10:37, 26 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep I suggest the nominator has not done WP:BEFORE. I've just done a quarter of an hour on the article and added 7 citations. I'll put some more time into the article, but he's clearly a well-known musician and that is supported by reliable sources. Bondegezou (talk) 10:49, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Most of the new sources you've added are about other artists and only mention Muhoberac by name, just like the third source. The Roland source has the same fault as the Moog. You added a Discogs page which is no good (see WP:RSDISCOGS), a Facebook link which is a video interview (see WP:INTERVIEW), and jpgr.co.uk which appears to be a Beatles fansite. Thus far you haven't added any sources that would help clear notability. There's no keep here yet, most certainly not a strong one. And I did say the words "Found no reliable coverage" in my nomination in direct reference to my WP:BEFORE search so your suggestion is incorrect. QuietHere (talk) 13:19, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * To summarise, what we're looking for here is WP:SIGCOV and you have provided none so far. Let us never forget the words "addresses the topic directly and in detail". QuietHere (talk) 13:21, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I have added 28 citations since you nominated the page about 6 hours ago. These are of various sorts, including the New York Times, St Louis Dispatch, Blabbermouth, Atwood Magazine, LA Times, the Library of Congress, &c. If you have concerns about any of them, you can of course tag them or otherwise raise the matter on the article's Talk page. However, clearly there is extensive reliable source coverage that can inform an article.
 * But you're right that most of these are just mentions of Muhoberac. I have added them to support claims made in the article, as required by WP:V. However, I have also added some more in depth, longer coverage. There is the Galaxy Mag piece, there is the video interview hosted on Facebook, and there is the Roland interview. (The Roland interview is not a newspaper or magazine, but I think it is unhelpful to characterise it as wholly unreliable. It is from a series of interviews with musicians.) I am continuing to add more citations. The problem I am finding is that there are so many references to Muhoberac in various reliable sources (e.g. 231 hits on a Google News search) that it takes time to work through them all to find the more in depth ones.
 * I note WP:BAND #2 is "Has had a single or album on any country's national music chart." Muhoberac has performed on numerous charting albums, including huge albums like Taylor Swift's Red, Faith Hill's Cry and Alanis Morisette's Under Rug Swept. But he was just a session guy on those. However, Muhoberac did co-write a song that made #16 in the UK and another that made #54, and writing a hit has been interpreted as satisfying that criterion before, and he also satisfies WP:COMPOSER #1. Muhoberac has had a significant role in other ensembles, notably as musical director for Seal, but also in Was (Not Was) and My Chemical Romance. WP:BANDMEMBER proposes a redirect if someone is a member of a notable group, but if someone is a member of several notable groups, we often give them their own article as no one redirect makes sense.
 * I will continue to work on the article. Bondegezou (talk) 15:32, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Once again, you've managed to add ten more references to this page but they still all fall under the same categorisation I explained above. There is no depth to any of these sources and you're stretching real thin to claim otherwise. Otherwise, BAND 2 is off the table since, as you said, he was just a session player on those so they aren't his charting hits. COMPOSER 1 is something but let me emphasise the "may be notable" that appears in that section and every other on the NMUSIC page. If this is the best that can be found then, as I said, it's stretching thin and I'm not convinced. QuietHere (talk) 01:15, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
 * @Bondegezou And one more thing to clear up because my edit summaries weren't clear enough: that umusic.ca link is to the website for Universal Music Canada, the artist's record label (see the prose mention of I'm Leaving You on Florence K's page) and the URL has the words "press releases" in it. That's why I tagged that page as unreliable.
 * And also let me say clearly that verifiability is not at issue here. You found plenty of sources with this man's name in them showing he worked on all those albums. Those are clear statements of fact and I'm not disputing them. But verifiability is not the same as notability. You can pile on as many sources as you want but WP:LOTSOFSOURCES don't solve the actual issue this AfD is covering. QuietHere (talk) 01:27, 27 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Delete Most of the sources are trivial, unsure if the two off-line ones quoted are lengthy or about this person. Oaktree b (talk) 12:04, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm unclear what you mean by the two off-line ones quoted...? I'm still adding to the article, but the longer sources so far are and, both interviews with Muhoberac. Bondegezou (talk) 12:34, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * OH, there are two newspapers quoted in the article, that don't appear to have online links, so they only exist in paper format.Oaktree b (talk) 13:06, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I see. There are >2 newspapers without online links now added (as I have access to a newspaper database). None of them are in depth about Muhoberac, but they support specific parts of the article. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch article is significant because it identifies Muhoberac as Seal's musical director. There are AfD precedents for recognising that significant members of a solo artist's band satisfy WP:NMUSIC (see Articles for deletion/Del Palmer (2nd nomination) and Articles for deletion/Evan Taubenfeld for comparison). Bondegezou (talk) 13:17, 26 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep - musical director for Seal, and a major collaborator of Jon Hassell's? He's clearly well-known within and without the music industry - A l is o n  talk 19:23, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Over 250 references to "Jamie Muhoberac" alone from Wikipedia articles, most of which aren't in-linking (yet) - A l is o n  talk 19:26, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If this gets kept then I recommend someone go to https://edwardbetts.com/find_link/ and add all of those. QuietHere (talk) 01:16, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
 * And to your vote explanation, saying "clearly notable" doesn't constitute a complete argument so you're gonna need more details here. The main issue is regarding SIGCOV; do you think all the sources that have been added constitute that (which I've already disputed above)? Or is there something else specific you have in mind? QuietHere (talk) 01:32, 27 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep. Clearly notable with enough sources to keep building on this. Nominator needed to do due diligence WP:BEFORE. Doczilla  @SUPERHEROLOGIST 21:20, 2 November 2022 (UTC)
 * If you're talking about the sources Bondegezou added, I've already discussed those thoroughly above. They do not constitute notability for this artist, and I did see all of that in my before search and ignored them because of that, hence "Found no reliable coverage" in my initial proposal. QuietHere (talk) 06:28, 3 November 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.