Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/January 2013 Great Britain and Ireland snowfall


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge to 2013 in the United Kingdom .  MBisanz  talk 03:07, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

January 2013 Great Britain and Ireland snowfall

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This just seems like a normal winter snowfall. Per WP:NOTNEWS, I don't think we need a new article for every time that it snows in Britain. Jeremy (talk) 01:36, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Environment-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 01:39, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of News-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 01:39, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ireland-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 01:39, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS PEANUTBUTTER &#9734;&#9733; 01:39, 22 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment Another winter another "is the weather notable enough for a Wikipedia article?" debate. I'm tempted to say keep for the usual arguments. Britain's climate is generally mild thanks to the Gulfstream, so heavy snowfall is rare. On top of that this is still an ongoing event, and for the Met Office to issue a red warning (the highest), as it did over the weekend, is unuaual. Having said that we need to think about how to deal with this if heavy snow becomes more regular. Three of the last four winters have seen significant snowfall. Whether that suggests a change in the climate is something I couldn't comment on, but if it was then obviously these events wouldn't be so notable. Paul MacDermott (talk) 12:35, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Very strong keep because of the rare red alert, avalanche and all the arguments above. This is certainly not a normal snowfall any more. GeorgeGriffiths (talk) 16:17, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * As pointed out on the article talk page the avalanche was in an area unaffected by the snowfall described in the article. To link it with this snowfall is original research.—Jeremy (talk) 19:08, 22 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Note An Anon editor removed the AFD tag. I have reinstated it.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:50, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete -- For about 20 years the south of England had litlte snow. The climate has now perhaps reverted to normal, and have forgotten how to operate with lying snow.  Snow in winter should not be regarded as unusual.  We have just become cowards in the face of it.  It is not a "storm".  Neither road nor climing accidnets are unusual.  EVen the red warning was merely that there would be more snow than normal.  Peterkingiron (talk) 16:50, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
 * "More snow than normal" being the point, I guess, and we've more on the way. Paul MacDermott (talk) 19:01, 22 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - although it's had local media coverage, it fails to meet Notability (events). This isn't 1962-1963, it's just annual snowfall (I can remember worse in the last two or three years). Although the media, particularly the BBC, have overhyped it, it's just routine coverage, and the event is unlikely to have lasting effects, or long term coverage. (I admit there's a bit of WP:CRYSTAL in that statement, so I was going to wait till the snow's melted before nominating it myself).  An  optimist  on the  run!  07:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep/merge We have yearbook articles like 2013 in the United Kingdom which would be a suitable place to record weather highlights like this. And we have plenty of other articles about inclement weather such as List of United States tornadoes in January 2013.  Such issues are best dealt with by merger up to an appropriate level of summary.  Deletion is not helpful in this and we don't need an AFD discussion every time someone starts such an article.  No-one ever deletes the AFD discussions and there's no reason to delete the articles either. Warden (talk) 13:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete/merge - Not especially encyclopedic (or well written - but that's another debate), and can be merged into local place articles where snow was locally eventful, as well as 2013 in the United Kingdom.... that is unless the weather pattern continues to something like '62/'63, in which case it can be easily reinstated anyway. --Jza84 | Talk  14:54, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment I would agree with those who want to delete this if we were talking about a day or two of fairly light snowfall, but since this has lasted almost two weeks now we're approaching the point of significance. What is inescapable is that such large quantities of snow are unusual for the United Kingdom. Sky News reports forecasts of further snowfall and nine weather-related deaths. Ideally it would have been better if this article had appeared later when we have a clearer picture of events. I also think it may bave been more courteous had the nominee waited forthe underconstruction template to be removed, either by the bot responsible for such matters or the article's creator themselves. Paul MacDermott (talk) 16:50, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
 * And after the snow come the floods, with 50 flood warnings in place. I may take a copy of this article and rework it into something like "Winter of 2012-2013 in Great Britain and ireland", though that depends on what happens through the rest of the winter, but it would potentially lead to a broader ranged and more encyclopedic article. Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:23, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * According to this the problem seems to be a little more widespread than the UK, with much of western Europe affected. Snow in Britain is rare these days. Snow in Spain even more so. I'll keep an eye on this topic and see how it goes. Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:42, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * This article is also worth a read. The important passage here is: "This is now the fifth year in a row that we have had an unusual amount of snow; I mean snow of a kind that I don't remember from childhood: snow that comes one day, sticks around for a couple of days, followed by more." Paul MacDermott (talk) 12:05, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * So Paul, is your argument that "Snow in Britain is rare these days", or that "This is now the fifth year in a row that we have had an unusual amount of snow"?  Le Deluge (talk) 19:38, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I've said somewhere else this is now the fifth winter in a row where we've had snow, so perhaps it isn't quite as rare as it was a few years back. The truth is these articles will continue to appear, and we'll have these debates, until we decide once and for all how to deal with this. I notice we're missing the two most recent Global storm activity articles for 2012 and 2013, so perhaps there is the place for this information. Paul MacDermott (talk) 22:54, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Notability (events) is a pretty good place to start. I'm not saying no weather is notable, but people have to think a bit on long-term perspective. The 1987 storm, the drought of 1976 - they are notable events that genuinely stick in the memory. They caused either widespread and "interesting" damage or policy shifts on eg water policy. Can anyone really imagine that in 30 years time "the snow of early 2013" will stick in the mind in the same way?Le Deluge (talk) 02:38, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * If you're looking for a way to quantify "lasting, historical significance" you could think in terms of hard cash. The ABI say that on average flooding led to £450m/year of insurance payouts during the noughties. So I'd suggest that if a single event led to >£1bn of insurance payout, that's the kind of threshold to think of. I think the 2000 floods were something like that, not sure if any have been since then. Obviously the indirect economic costs can be much more but are much "fuzzier" - this pseudo-advertising report puts the average indirect costs of snow at £11bn/year, so I'd be looking for >£22bn of indirect costs for snowfall to be notable.Le Deluge (talk) 17:29, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * In line with the data provided by Le Deluge, a little perspective on the reported fatalities can be found in noting that the average excess winter (December to March) mortality in the United Kingdom is about 200 extra deaths per day. There are also, on average, about 5 fatal road accidents per day in the UK.—Jeremy (talk) 17:58, 25 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete/merge - as I said on the Talk page :"I too was somewhat depressed if not altogether surprised to see that this article had been created. Might I gently suggest that people read Notability (events), in particular
 * Wikinews offers a place where editors can document current news events, but not every incident that gains media coverage will have or should have a Wikipedia article. A rule of thumb for creating a Wikipedia article is whether the event is of lasting, historical significance....Editors should bear in mind recentism, the tendency for new and current matters to seem more important than they might seem in a few years time....Events that have a noted and sourced permanent effect of historical significance are likely to be notable. This includes, for example, natural disasters that result in widespread destruction, since they lead to rebuilding, population shifts, and possible impact on elections. For example, Hurricane Katrina or the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake are notable by these standards. A minor earthquake or storm with little or no impact on human populations is probably not notable. It may take weeks or months to determine whether or not an event has a lasting effect. Think about this article in that context."
 * I would also note that User:GeorgeGriffiths, creator of the article, is still at school so perhaps lacks a historical perspective on these things. I would also note that this is not a national event but a regional one - the real angle is that it's snowed quite a bit in Bristol. Snow in the Brecon Beacons is not news, nor in the Peak District. I'm further east and we've had about 3 inches - totally unremarkable. In Scotland they must be laughing. The yearbook article seems the appropriate place for this stuff - and as Jza says, that's before we get onto the quality of the snow article as it stands, but that's as much to do with the tenuous notability as anything.Le Deluge (talk) 19:38, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Data - there's far too much anecdote on this page - Boris Johnson has been cited as some kind of authority for flip's sake, a man who grew up in the biggest heat island in the country. Here's the Met Office data - the long term average is for 16.5 days a year with snow on the ground in the UK, and 33 days per year when snow is falling. In particular take a look at those maps for the 1971-2000 average snow fall/persistence. I'd not seen them but they make my points rather well about snow in Bristol being the most notable (umm - least unnotable...) feature of the recent weather, and the complete bemusement of the Scots about any of this being interesting.Le Deluge (talk) 02:38, 25 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete/merge - I agree it fails on notability. The yearbook is a more appropriate place.  --HighKing (talk) 20:33, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Just to add, some of these "Britain and Ireland" styled articles are a nonsense anyway. Ireland has had a pitifully tiny amount of snow compared to Great Britain, so why try to lump together two different islands to plump up an article.  The vast majority of these "Weather X in Britain and Ireland" articles are concerned with Britain, and Ireland usually just gets a passing mention.  Same as this one.  Not all articles obviously.  If the shoe fits, fine, but if it doesn't, stop maiming your feet.  --HighKing (talk) 13:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Agreed - if the article survives this AfD it needs to be renamed. Incidentally, would those !voting for merge please indicate what it should be merged with.  An  optimist  on the  run!  22:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Merge, and even the snowfall in Bristol is not that remarkable. Speaking as someone who lives there.TheLongTone (talk) 11:39, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.