Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jascha Silberstein


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was Keep. —Quarl (talk) 2007-02-25 04:32Z 

Jascha Silberstein

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

No claim of notability, no references. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 01:18, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete per nomination. Philippe Beaudette 04:08, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails WP:V and WP:N Jeepday 04:11, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak delete So he was a teacher and occasional performer. Does that mean he meets biography guidelines? I don't think so, but I could be wrong. --Gwern (contribs) 05:59 14 February 2007 (GMT) 05:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete Being a teacher and performer is not enough for WP:BLP. Fundamental Dan 16:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * "Teacher and occasional performer" seems unfair. The article actually states that he was principal cellist in the orchestra of the Metropolitan Opera for thirty years. I have tried to fix the article up a bit and put that already in the beginning. I get over 13,000 hits on Google, many for still available or re-issued recordings. Searching Amazon also finds some CDs. Here is a review of a video of a 1980 performance of Puccini's Manon Lescaut, issued by Deutsche Grammophon, where the reviewer states that "Cellist Jascha Silberstein's solos also give particular pleasure." An archive search of Google News get 24 hits. Most of these are pay-per-view or subscription sites which I can't access, but (for instance) a viewable snippet of some review from the Washington Post says "A principal attraction of those festivals has always been Jascha Silberstein, the first cellist of the Metropolitan Opera, a master of all that is romantic ..." The website of the Servais Society (Adrien-François Servais was a famous 19th c. Belgian cellist) has a news item saying that "In the series Jascha Silberstein - Live Performances the label Kurakichi Studio releases previously unpublished recordings of this famous cellist." Apparently he is well-known among fans of cello music and important enough to have his recordings re-issued in a special series (although he seems to be personally involved in that). I don't know if this is enough to show notability. (I can't find any actual biography of Silberstein except on the site where his live performance recordings are sold, which is arguably not entirely independent of him, but I suspect one might find more in dead-tree publications.) Pharamond 22:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * See if Notability (music) can be any help. I am willing to be convinved, but I am not sure if being a performer of other's music and being mentioned a few times in various publications 'cuts it'.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep bogus nomination (a) has asserted claim for notability as the principal cellist in the orchestra. and (b) lack of references in not a reason for AfD; it should be tagged for cleanup etc. --Kevin Murray 22:37, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Please explain to me why being a 'principal cellist in the orchestra' is enough to be notable. On a sidenote, the only article that links to him (as of this moment) is Festival of Neglected Romantic Music - and I don't really see what makes that event notable.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:51, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per Pharamond. Seems notable enough in his field for mine. Capitalistroadster 01:31, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete. If he is so notable because of his relationship with the Met Opera, shouldn't he be mentioned at least in passing in the Met article, as are numerous conductors, singers, etc.?  Further, since he's now retired (as of 1996), I kind of doubt he will become any more notable.  Therefore, where does the article have to go from where it is now?  (On a side note, was he the principal cellist for all thirty years?)  Cedlaod 02:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. Why should Jim Morrison have an article and not Jascha Silberstein? 63.228.63.253 13:16, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps because Jim Morrison is about a hundred times more popular then Jascha Silberstain?--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 13:48, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe all the records Jim Morrison has collaborated on/sold? Was that a serious question? Cedlaod 04:07, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep. Not a computer game or a television character, but an accomplished musician. 63.228.63.253 13:12, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Comparing Silberstein to Jim Morrison is silly and not really doing his case any good. (Was that even a serious comment?) I guess one could compare Jim Morrison to a cellist superstar like Jacqueline du Pré. But there seems to be a point in Wikipedia having a bias for contemporary popular music (in the sense of pop, rock and related genres) as opposed to classical music. A more relevant comparison would perhaps be to the huge number of obscure groups or people included in categories like Category:Black metal musical groups or Category:Heavy metal drummers. Heavy metal is certainly significant as a genre, as are its superstars (its Morrisons or du Prés, if you will), like Metallica or Motorhead or the members of those groups, but with all the subgenres (black/death/thrash/doom etc. etc.) and all regionally popular groups, I wonder if most of the metal bands and musicians on Wikipedia really compare that favourably to a musician who has played first cello for three decades in the (presumably often recorded) orchestra of one of the most famous opera houses in the world. Pharamond 07:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Good point. Popular music(ians) cruft is another area in need of desperate pruning.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 20:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached  Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,


 * Comment: There's no mention of any cellists in Metropolitan Opera, and apparently not even all of its conductors are notable enough to be listed or have an article. —Quarl (talk) 2007-02-19 11:31Z 
 * Strong Keep. The article on the Opera, like that for most musical organizations, lists the conductors and some of the principal singers. We don't seem to have standards for orchestral musicians, but i think any of the regular members of any of the major professional orchestras is about comparable to a regular long term member of a professional football team. The leader of a section is the senior player of the group, and generally also a well known soloist on his instrument, as is Silberstein. The opera orchestra  gives concerts of its own & tours on its own account apart from the opera company.   It's hard to give numbers, but I think it would be safe to say that the leader of a section in a major orchestra must be among the 20 best players of the instrument. Do the 20 best bass players in popular musics have articles?  Sure they do. But not a single one is  known to me, by name or by music. Notability in the field is notability, or else we will all be deleting each other's genres.  Pharamond sees it right.
 * As another comparison, think of it as members of the section being like full professors, and the principals being chairmen. Orchestral musicians are appointed in similar ways, by judgement of their peers--in classical music, usually by the even more demanding judgment by blind audition.  DGG 04:38, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.