Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jason Diamond (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. There is no firm agreement that the sources found by Cunard contribute enough for the subject to be notable. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  18:03, 9 November 2016 (UTC)

Jason Diamond
AfDs for this article: 
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non notable plastic surgeon, appearing on a few episodes of a show for promotional purposes.  DGG ( talk ) 02:42, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Strong delete We need to have sources that reference the subject, which we entirely lack. The only sources are the subjects own websites, and that is not enough to establish notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 03:17, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete. Certainly non-notable as a surgeon, and his appearances on television from time to time do not confer notability within the terms of Wikipedia's notability guidelines. I nominated this article for deletion in April 2014 (See Articles for deletion/Jason Diamond) and then I wrote "The external links (the nearest there is to any references) are to Jason Diamond's personal web site and to the web site of his business." Two and a half years later, that is still so: nobody has ever produced a single independent reference for the article.
 * (The 2014 discussion was closed by a non-administrator as "no consensus", but in fact the only opposition to deletion was from one editor whose reasons were unrelated to Wikipedia's guidelines and policies, so in my opinion the closure was wrong. The two reasons given for keeping were (1) that Jason Diamond keeps a list of his television appearances on his personal web site, and (2) that the guidelines accept as notable anyone "recognized by popular media as experts", which is simply not true, unless it is tucked away somewhere in the guidelines where I haven't managed to find it.) The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 09:21, 14 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:PROMO; strictly a vanity page. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:03, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. North America1000 23:36, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. North America1000 23:36, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions. North America1000 23:36, 15 October 2016 (UTC)


 * delete got a little celebrity for TV role; fails GNG. 00:00, 16 October 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jytdog (talk • contribs) (per this)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.  The article notes: "Dr. Jason Diamond wasn't aware that his E! reality TV series Dr. 90210 was being aired on the other side of the planet. That is, until patients began arriving at his Beverly Hills office from all different parts of the Middle East. A facial specialist, Diamond was one of a group of prominent plastic surgeons featured on the show from 2005 through 2008. His new clientele included members of some of the most powerful and wealthiest Arab families in the world, including royalty from different countries in the region. They all wanted him to perform plastic surgery. Diamond treated these patients in the United States initially. Over time, though, they began to ask if he'd be willing to travel to provide his services for them and their families at home. Eventually he decided to give it a shot. It took a year to get his license there and to settle on a medical facility where he could operate, but he eventually settled at The American British Surgical and Medical Centre in Dubai, founded by British plastic surgeon Mendy Kahn."  The article notes: "Dr. 90210 began titillating American viewers in 2004 with its salacious, sometimes gruesome look at the physical transformations of Beverly Hills' beauty-obsessed denizens through breast implants, reductions, face-lifts, rhinoplasties, liposuction and whitened smiles. Its tagline: 'If you weren't born with it, buy it.' After the E! show went dark in the U.S. in 2008, it continued to air in 22 other countries, including the United Arab Emirates. As a result, its stars have become hugely in-demand surgeons, with all of the attendant hoopla -- and additional business -- that comes with fame. 'Anyone who has any kind of media exposure here is considered an A-list celebrity, not just a reality TV asshole,' says Jason Diamond, Dr. 90210's former facial expert. He also is the ringleader of a 90210 plastic-surgeon posse that is part of a lucrative partnership with the American British Surgical & Medical Centre, a facility that brings U.S. and U.K. doctors to the Middle East, located on Abu Bakr Al Siddique Road in Dubai's Deira district. After being approached by the ABSAMC, Diamond, who specializes in noses and face-lifts, brought in other former 90210 docs including Kevin Sands, the Kardashians' family dentist who also has created winning grins for Charlie Sheen, Miley Cyrus, Kanye West, Emma Stone, Robert Downey Jr. and Britney Spears." <li> The article notes: "Dr. Jason Diamond knows what it's like to be sought after. The Beverly Hills plastic surgeon -- first made famous by reality show 'Dr. 90210' -- has operated on a range of A-list celebrities (though he declines to name them). Yet even he was unprepared for the clamor that met him when he first visited Dubai in what was meant to be a one-time gig as a guest surgeon. 'For that week, I literally had people waiting until 2am for a consultation. The waiting room was filled 20 people-deep all day long,' he recalls. That was in 2009. Since, Diamond has returned to the city every two to three months as part of a partnership with the American British Surgical and Medical Centre. Over the years, he has enlisted the Who's Who of Beverly Hills surgeons to join him at the practice."</li> <li> This article quotes Diamond extensively. </li> </ol>There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Jason Diamond to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 03:30, 16 October 2016 (UTC) </li></ul>
 * Entirely unclear what kind of encyclopedic content would be generated from those sources. Useless for WP. Jytdog (talk) 00:18, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Pinging Articles for deletion/Jason Diamond participants and closer (who is now an admin) who have not commented here:, , and . Pinging , who declined the prod. Cunard (talk) 03:30, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I only declined the prod, because there were two previous prod, and prod contestings. Not because of any inherent quality of the topic. So that is not a vote either way. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:06, 16 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom, . He's a busy surgeon. So what? Bearian (talk) 21:27, 17 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Per WP:GNG. Sources provided by Cunard. And many more independent reliable sources listed here. I have no personal opinion for or against Doctor, such as "He's a busy surgeon so what" or "He's a great surgeon.". Rather I look at evidence ie. the existence of sources, per our core guideline WP:NOTE. --  Green  C  00:09, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
 * yes we know he has been on TV a lot. does not contribute to N. celebrity =/= notability. Jytdog (talk) 00:16, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The notability guidelines allow for specialists in a field who are recognized by popular media as experts. He's not a "celebrity", he is a notable doctor. -- Green  C  02:52, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Nope, he is just a celebrity or maybe a celebrity doctor; not notable that I can see. Jytdog (talk) 04:31, 18 October 2016 (UTC)
 * "Just a celebrity" contradicts the evidence (he is a doctor); and celebrity doctor's can be notable, we don't discriminate against celebrity doctors on Wikipedia. -- Green  C  14:32, 19 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep The sources cited above, combined with what's already in the article, meet the notability standard. Alansohn (talk) 04:30, 19 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Question' Let us suppose for the moment he were in some other profession. Would the TV appearances given here make him notable ?
 * Delete as the Delete votes are concurring this is simply an advertisement for a surgeon who has happened to get some news attention to TV and events, none of that inherited notability especially if it's simply for advertising the man; the sources themselves simply advertise ehat there is to know about him and his business and it goes to contain blatant PR quotes. Therefore by considering these sources as "independent and substantial" is not the case and we must certainly not think of them being otherwise simply because of the publication's name. SwisterTwister   talk  20:14, 21 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Meets notability and WP:NOT requirements.  A source of sources was shown at the previous AfD.  Note that the policy WP:PROMO itself merely requires NPOV, whereas the argument here is that anything said that shows the commercial attraction of the entity has the effect of promoting the entity.  But the article would fail NPOV if the commercial  attraction of the entity were omitted, so the argument is self-contradictory.  No problems with promotional tone have been identified, and if there are any claimed, they can be fixed with WP:Editing policy.   Note also that the arguments to notability have not properly reviewed the alternatives to deletion, where this topic is a major element in Dr. 90210.  The sources provided by Cunard include the statement five years after Dr. 90210 stopped production, "its stars have become hugely in-demand surgeons, with all of the attendant hoopla -- and additional business -- that comes with fame... [Diamond] is the ringleader of a 90210 plastic-surgeon posse that is part of a lucrative partnership with the American British Surgical & Medical Centre...in Dubai's Deira district."  The challenge for Wikipedia here is to continue to encourage both our content contributors and our AfD participants to understand and support our policies and guidelines.  Unscintillating (talk) 15:04, 23 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment Every doctor listed in Dr. 90210 is either currently under AfD or already deleted; all but one were initiated by DGG
 * David Matlock
 * Linda Li
 * Gary Motykie
 * Robert Rey
 * Will Kirby
 * Surely some of these could be saved or recreated per our policy of WP:PRESERVE. --  Green  C  15:33, 23 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd think it reasonable to make redirects to the show.  DGG ( talk ) 04:08, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Nordic   Nightfury  07:47, 25 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment -- Gary Motykie was nominated by me; it was deleted because it was found non-notable. K.e.coffman (talk) 05:59, 26 October 2016 (UTC)
 * I assume this is what the article looked like. It was found non-notable, until someone recreates it with proper sourcing (see Lourdes comment) and makes a 10 minute effort to defend it from deletionists through AUTHOR and/or ACTOR. It's too bad no one did that, made an effort, WP:PRESERVE is our policy. --  Green  C  14:18, 26 October 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete I do not see any sources which substantially discuss the subject. There are a bunch of sources which quote him (as having participated in a tv show), but nothing substantial to enable us to write an article. If you actually look at the coverage presented above, much of it is limited to 1 or 2 sentences and this is not significant coverage. More importantly, most of the coverage is essentially about the TV show than the subject which makes this tend towards a BIO1E. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 03:12, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * That is incorrect. The article in The Atlantic, for example, is not "limited to 1 or 2 sentences": "Dr. Jason Diamond wasn't aware that his E! reality TV series Dr. 90210 was being aired on the other side of the planet. That is, until patients began arriving at his Beverly Hills office from all different parts of the Middle East. A facial specialist, Diamond was one of a group of prominent plastic surgeons featured on the show from 2005 through 2008. His new clientele included members of some of the most powerful and wealthiest Arab families in the world, including royalty from different countries in the region. They all wanted him to perform plastic surgery. Diamond treated these patients in the United States initially. Over time, though, they began to ask if he'd be willing to travel to provide his services for them and their families at home. Eventually he decided to give it a shot. It took a year to get his license there and to settle on a medical facility where he could operate, but he eventually settled at The American British Surgical and Medical Centre in Dubai, founded by British plastic surgeon Mendy Kahn. ... In Dubai, about 60 percent of Diamond's current patients are Arabs who all speak fluent English. The remaining 40 percent are expatriates from Australia and Europe. Within the Middle Eastern group he sees local Emirati, as well as patients from other GCC countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, and Qatar. He also has patients who fly in from India, Africa, and Russia. ...  The first physician Diamond recruited into his new practice was Dr. David Matlock, who specializes in several procedures that he pioneered such as VASER Hi Def Liposculpturing (also known as 'advanced surgical bodybuilding'), laser vaginal rejuvenation procedures, and Brazilian butt augmentations." Cunard (talk) 03:22, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * If you actually look at the coverage presented above, much of it is limited to 1 or 2 sentences and this is not significant coverage. Yes, I am glad you agree that the other sources are not useful. Except for one, others are not significant coverage or are simply quotes. There is nothing substantial for GNG to be satisfied. Also a BIO1E. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 03:30, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Hard to understand your position. There are multiple paragraphs about his practices, patients, employees, locations.. exactly the kind of information to write an article with. If this isn't significant coverage I don't know what is. -- Green  C  04:08, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * No, I do not agree "the other sources are not useful". From The Hollywood Reporter: "... Jason Diamond, Dr. 90210's former facial expert. He also is the ringleader of a 90210 plastic-surgeon posse that is part of a lucrative partnership with the American British Surgical & Medical Centre, a facility that brings U.S. and U.K. doctors to the Middle East, located on Abu Bakr Al Siddique Road in Dubai's Deira district. After being approached by the ABSAMC, Diamond, who specializes in noses and face-lifts, brought in other former 90210 docs including Kevin Sands ... Another 90210 star Diamond enlisted is David Matlock ... Diamond once made the social error of accepting the dinner invitation of three young female patients, daughters of a wealthy man. ...  Diamond's fees also vary from patient to patient. ...  Expect the plastic surgery invasion to continue unabated across the map: Plans are in the works for ABSAMC and Dubai ringleader Diamond to create similar surgical clinics in Kuwait, Singapore and Qatar. Diamond recently was invited to Russia by what he calls 'powerful people' for talks to set up his own shops in St. Petersburg and Moscow." The CNN article provides five sentences of coverage about him. WP:BIO1E is inapplicable. The sources discuss Diamond as a doctor on Dr. 90210 and as a businessman who recruited other plastic surgeons to work at a new surgical practice he started in Saudia Arabia. Cunard (talk) 03:56, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * That's a lot of inherited coverage from the TV show. Nothing to show that the subject is independently notable. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 05:33, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Cunard that is not stuff one can use to create a WP article. Not substantial discussion, but some gossipy details.Jytdog (talk) 04:01, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The copy of the coverage is clearly promotional: "Diamond recently was invited to Russia by what he calls "powerful people" for talks to set up his own shops in St. Petersburg and Moscow" -- nothing but promotional content can be developed from this, and Wikipedia is not a promotional platform for otherwise unremarkable business people. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:04, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * There is reliable information to write an article with. "Diamond's fees also vary from patient to patient" .. "part of a partnership with the American British Surgical & Medical Centre" .. "Diamond, who specializes in noses and face-lifts" .. "Diamond enlisted David Matlock" .. this is all factual material that be be built on in conjunction with other sources and research. -- Green  C  04:14, 31 October 2016 (UTC)
 * The problem is that the sources are gossipy/fluffy. Stuff like "Diamond's fees also vary from patient to patient" isn't exactly what we can put in the article. Most of the coverage is also inherited from the TV show. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 05:33, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Regardless of it being supposedly "factual": ""Diamond's fees also vary from patient to patient" .. "part of a partnership with the American British Surgical & Medical Centre" .. "Diamond, who specializes in noses and face-lifts" .. "Diamond enlisted David Matlock"" is all advertising and something only the company cares to advertise about itself, because it sure as hell isn't something a publishing company is interested to say unless it too was paid for it; therefore actually going to specifics about what the fees are is basically appealing to clients, are we here for advertising about that? Absolutely not, therefore it's unacceptable. SwisterTwister   talk  05:46, 8 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.