Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jay Bias


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Len Bias. Consensus at the target is free to determine how much of the article, if any, is to be integrated. If nothing gets merged and/or consensus is against there even being the redirect, the redirect can be listed at WP:RFD for deletion. slakr \ talk / 08:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Jay Bias

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Notability is not inherited, his death received coverage because of his brother CutOffTies (talk) 03:21, 18 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment Significant coverage as well because he was a High School All-America and one of the top 20 basketball recruits in the nation. He did happen to be the younger brother of a famous player but he was also a great basketball player in his own right.    If you go to the 2015 McDonald's All-American Boys Game roster.  More than half of the players already have a wikipedia page without EVER playing a minute of college basketball.    Jay Bias did play and brought his team to number 8 in the nation.  He passes WP:GNG/

"If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list.

"Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it need not be the main topic of the source material."

NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 21:20, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - A shame what happened to him, but being a community college basketball player doesn't seem notable.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 07:02, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete or merge/redirect: Incredible misery that the family has endured, but Wikipedia is not a memorial. Hithladaeus (talk) 13:52, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The number of sources found by NegroLeagueHistorian for fame for Jay convinces me that a merge with redirect is probably warranted. Hithladaeus (talk) 18:35, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge and redirect: A merge proposal was posted ahead of the initiation of this discussion. Jay Bias was already covered in Len Bias. See Talk:Len_Bias. —Largo Plazo (talk) 15:24, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Maryland-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep or Merge to Len Bias Jay Bias gained fame as the brother of Len Bias.  He became a famous basketball player in his own right.  His death made national news.    The sheer number of non passing sources show that he passes GNG.           NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 18:21, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree with the merge, as I stated above; note that every one of the sources you provided mention Jay, precisely, only in the context of Len. (Check out the search links above for searches that exclude mention of Len.) Also, all the coverage is about his having died. Regarding that, see WP:SINGLEEVENT. —Largo Plazo (talk) 18:34, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * ONEEVENT makes exceptions for those who are historically significant." "if an event is of sufficient importance, even relatively minor participants may require their own articles""   This includes individuals like John Wilkes Booth, James Earl Ray,  John Hinckley Jr, Todd Beamer, and Lauren Grandcolas.  NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 18:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * What's the historical significance of Jay Bias? —Largo Plazo (talk) 00:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * What was the historical significance of Mark Bingham or even Rosemary Kennedy ? Jay Bias passes WP:GNG .  If he wasn't why was his death in so many newspapers?  Many famous people have siblings who die and very few make so much news!   NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 05:55, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * At the end of his senior year he was named one of the 20 best high school basketball players in the United States. NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 06:09, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Mark Bingham tried to save a planeload of people from perishing and received coverage in his own right (not as somebody's brother) as a hero. Rosemary Kennedy and her treatment by her famous and politically important family were a subject of public controversy and a sustained topic of conversation (but WP:ONEEVENT doesn't apply to her anyway). Jay Bias simply died, with the addition of being rated not the best, but one of 20, in a list by a magazine—which is an achievement but not exactly the Hall of Fame (should the other 19 also all have articles merely on the basis of that recognition?)—,and you're comparing him to John Wilkes Booth. —Largo Plazo (talk) 10:39, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Largo, I never said he was the best of all time. He was though an All-America, a highly recruited player out of high school and the victim of a street violence.  He led his team to a number 8 ranking in the nation.  There are many articles dedicated to him and I have added even more including from places like NY Times.  NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 19:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I didn't say that you said he was the best of all time. —Largo Plazo (talk) 20:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Largoplazo, Being a high school All-America is quite notable. Being top 20 in a nation of 250 million is quite notable.  There is even a catagory for it in wikipedia Category:High school basketball in the United States .  NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 21:17, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Redirect to Len Bias. Notability is not inherited, and there is enough on the main page about him. Jay Bias is not historically significant. ~ EDDY  ( talk / contribs ) ~ 20:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * all of the sources you listed are in the context of his more relevant brother. Sure he should be mentioned, but not in his own article. Though the event was tragic, if his brother was not as famous, it would not have gotten any attention, and inherited notability is not allowed.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 21:49, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * His brother is more significant. This does not mean Jay is not significant.  Many famous people have siblings who died tragically. Most do not make the news!  NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 05:55, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed. And if Len Bias hadn't died, then when his brother did it wouldn't have made the news either. The only reason it made the news was that it compounded the existing tragedy of Len's death. So the notability of Jay Bias and the notability of his death lie entirely not only within the scope of the notability of Len, but within the scope of the notability of Len's death. —Largo Plazo (talk) 10:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * It made the news also because of his amazing talent as a basketball player. He was a high school notability and college notability.  There are many articles that mention him and not his brother.  NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 19:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * , now come on. You know it was because of his brother's death, his death was notable. He was a community college basketball player. He was not considered a top potential draft pick in the NBA, let alone attending a notable college. Like I said, it deserves a mention in his brother's article, but that's it.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 20:26, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * TGS, Take a look at ALL-AMERICAN!  That is notable.   He went to a community college because of his grades, even there he succeeded.  He was still being recruited by notable colleges in the Big East. So you can't say that any notable colleges weren't recruiting him.
 * "There are many articles that mention him and not his brother." Not any of the sources you cited above, nor any of the twenty or more that you've cited in the article that I clicked. I've clicked a bunch of links from Google searches and found only this one so far. —Largo Plazo (talk) 20:40, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Ok, in terms of many. I should clarify.  Many that I saw though not necessarily in the article.


 * He does pass WP:GNG.

"If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list.


 * "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it need not be the main topic of the source material."


 * Articles about him range from the NY Times to the LA Times .  This shows that he is notable based on his ability and prior to his death.  NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 21:17, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The very titles of both those articles frame him in terms of his brother. —Largo Plazo (talk) 23:23, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Redirect Notability is not inherited and pretty much every reliable independent source is in the context of Len Bias. He is not notable for his high school career, he didn't receive the kind of coverage that would denote GNG.  Recruiting rankings in and of themselves do not connote notability. Rikster2 (talk) 21:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * A high school All American, not all state, but All-America is notable. If you go to the 2015 McDonald's All-American Boys Game roster.  More than half of the players already have a wikipedia page without EVER playing a minute of college basketball.  NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 21:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * that would be mentionable (on his brother's page describing personal life) if he were a college All-American, but as you even say, he was a high school All-American which is impressive, but not worthy of an article. A merger is the only option since you have not made any conclusive or factual points as to why he is notable without the context of his brother. No one else has agreed to your argument and suggest a merger or deletion, so why not work on the merger?TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:05, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * High school basketball All-Americans are not inherently notable, college All-Americans are presumed notable per WP:NCOLLATH. Trust me, I have created over 400 basketball player articles, I know what the standards are.  The 2015 McDonald's All-Americans need to meet GNG to have articles.  This one rises or falls on the back of GNG. Rikster2 (talk) 22:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment Obviously meets WP:GNG due to coverage in multiple, reliable, third-party sources, and by following the guidelines as they're written this shouldn't be deleted. The sources are spread around the United States and not just routine local coverage. Los Angeles and New York are far from Maryland.  Significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.   Essentially, There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow 'Jay Bias to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".  NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 23:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I disagree with you that the coverage provided constitutes notability for Jay Bias outside of being Len Bias' brother. He flunks WP:GNG in my opinion. Rikster2 (talk) 02:26, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Reply Not that it matters much given other issues, but the articles on the LA Times website were actually published in the Baltimore Sun, as stated on each article.  They are now both owned by the Tribune Co which gets things mixed up --CutOffTies (talk) 00:55, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Also passes WP:NCOLLATH

Gained national media attention as an individual, not just as a player for a notable team

and WP:NHSPHSATH High school and pre-high school athletes are notable only if they have received, as individuals, substantial and prolonged coverage that is (1) independent of the subject and (2) clearly goes beyond WP:ROUTINE coverage. Note that the first clause would exclude all school papers and school websites that cover their sports teams and other teams they compete against. The second clause excludes the majority of local coverage in both news sources and sports specific publications. It especially excludes using game play summaries, statistical results, or routine interviews as sources to establish notability. NegroLeagueHistorian (talk) 08:55, 24 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.