Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jay Leslie


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete mostly because of a daunting lack of independent sources and moreover only the article creator, whose contribution history is very short and limited more or less to this article, asked for the article to be kept. I'll be happy to put a copy of the deleted content into User:Avestriel's user space pending a further search for meaningful independent sources. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:10, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Jay Leslie

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Poorly written, unreferenced article about a possibly non-notable magician. I've removed one section as copyvio, but looking at the external links I noticed that a couple of them appear to have nothing to do with the subject. Fair number of ghits for "jay leslie magician", but most are for magic-related products sold under his name. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 13:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

~Keep referenced notable subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avestriel (talk • contribs) 20:29, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

In what way is it poorly written? Please give helpful advice as to how I may improve it, or else edit it yourself. From where I'm standing that is simply a rude comment. I have found a few more references, and am continuing to search for more. This has been my first wikipedia entry and I am trying to learn how to uphold the standards set by others before me. I'm open to criticism and working towards improvement. You do not have to be mean. From my POV Jay Leslie is AWESOME. --Christa Driscoll (talk) 20:55, 24 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - Fails WP:BIO; non-notable magician. Very little media coverage, most of which is not directly related to the subject. Majority of ghits are simply listings of him performing at an event. Jезка  (talk) 15:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

If said magician is most notable for inheriting Jim Swoger's act, and inventing a device for producing an illusion which he holds the patent for, then doesn't it stand to reason that most of the links you'll find for him are his products for sale? Hasbro has a wikipedia article, they own the Tonka brand of children's toys. They are products he invented, or improved. He would also hold the rights to any products left him by James Swoger. Has anyone found patent information from the 1930's-1960's on James Swoger. I don't think it's appropriate to say "non-notable magician" for example if you are thinking in the literal sense then clearly the subject has been "notable" to you. Voltaire the current Musician has a wikipedia article, largely listing events he has performed at and things such as toys and comics which he has sold, yet his page is not in question.
 * Jay Leslie has just as much notability as many articles which are not being deleted in wikipedia, such as Harald Norpoth about whom there are only two paragraph and those only to express that 1. He won a silver olympic medal and 2. he is related to someone even less "notable." Certainly this person did something more notable than Voltaire (Musician) or Jay Leslie - yet he has a much less involved article.

Perhaps a warning at the top of the page is sufficient, a bit of editing, and perhaps some more research. It should not be deleted outright. He has won several awards & etc. Perhaps the D.A.R.E people have more information as he created an anti-drug school campaign for them. Don't be silly. Also, a word of advice; there are tissues, there are photocopies, and there are search engine results. Also, the internet does not contain all of the information on any given topic. Hopefully it will someday, that's why we're all contributing to Wikipedia voluntarily, right?--208.40.160.51 (talk) 18:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Jay Leslie is "notable." my kids loved him on PBS, I remember the that show he was a storyteller on played around the same time as "between the lions" and I'm pretty sure I remember him from one of those talent shows because he came back for finals. Anyway I've definitely heard of him. He hasn't exactly filled stadiums like David Copperfield but he's certainly worth a wikipedia article. We should just clean it up and find more references. Or keep the warnings at the top of the page about the article needing to be cleaned up and being unreferenced. I don't think it's poorly written Christa, it just looks like you didn't have enough source material to write in the full entry that you obviously wanted. Jay leslie is definitely an interesting character and fun magician, but we do need the facts and not just a statement of how "great" anyone thinks he is or was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.20.120.120 (talk) 00:16, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash;Sean Whitton / 13:45, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Some Comments on the above. 208.40.160.51, you said "doesn't it stand to reason that most of the links you'll find for him are his products for sale?" Maybe it does, but the point is that finding his own promotional materials doesn't harm his notability, it just doesn't help it. We need to show that he's been mentioned in reliable sources, as explained in the policy I linked to there. Since his own material doesn't count as reliable (as it's not independent), we can't use it to establish his notability. Speaking of notability, you said that in a literal sense he's notable because we've all noticed his article. But Delicious carbuncle was using the word 'notable' in a technical sense which Wikipedia uses: the policies Notability and Notability (people) explain our criteria for determining that. Basically, we have to establish significant coverage of him in 'reliable sources' as I mentioned above. It doesn't matter how famous he is if we can't find reliable mention of him in books, magazines, newspapers or the like. Finally, you made the argument that "Jay Leslie has just as much notability as many articles which are not being deleted in wikipedia". I know this can be tempting to say, but that's actually an argument which we try to avoid (see Wikipeida:Other Stuff Exists). One reason is that we could make that decision based on comparisons to other articles which aren't themselves worthy of inclusion, and are fated to get deleted next week! Because millions of people edit Wikipedia and often upload articles on un-noteworthy topics, it's safer to avoid that kind of comparison and decide each case based on our policies - in particular the ones I linked to above.


 * On notability - In my opinion the links to his webpage should count. Take a look at them. They are not his words which he has written about himself, they are scanned letters of recommendation from places such as Samsung America, KDKA, the International Brotherhood of Magicians, Busch Gardens, & etc. It is not as though I have programmed a website about myself which simply has a picture of me saying "I am AWESOME" and then written a wikipedia article about Avestriel citing that website as proof that she is awesome. These are genuine and separate articles which just happen to be found at the source. Where else would they be? There are other references, and I am still finding more. Thank you. Help would be welcomed. -Avestriel

To Christa: I understand that it's distressing to be told your work is poorly written or that it should be deleted. I think when Delicious carbuncle said it was poorly written he was referring to some grammatical errors you made - but that's not something to worry too much about, because the collaborative nature of the project means that those sort of things will get fixed over time, and articles are never deleted on those grounds. The important thing to think about is the issue of notability, as I described it above. If you can find some reliable sources such as news media or books which cover Leslie's career and add them to the article or mention them here, you should be able to save it from deletion. Olaf Davis | Talk 15:26, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

To Olaf: Thank you, that was helpful. I am attempting to find and add more external references. I do think the links to magic related websites selling his products should count because they are not his website. This shows that other companies and performers use and recommend his products which should count toward notability and not (as I had to remove them since the article was initially deleted as "blatant advertisement") an attempt at advertisement. I admittedly do not have the best grammar skills, but I am full of random information. That's why I made this account. My boyfriend on the other hand is a technical writer and only ever makes grammatical and spelling corrections. Thank you for your help as I think this article can be salvaged and have been editing it whenever I have the opportunity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avestriel (talk • contribs) 00:25, 26 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.