Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jean Aimé Pierre Guerrier


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:42, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Jean Aimé Pierre Guerrier

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Non-notable soldier. The Chevalier grade of the French Legion of Honour does not qualify as France's highest military honor (one would have to have been awarded the Grand Cross of the Legion of Honour to claim the highest grade of award), and Guerrier's other decorations are merely campaign decorations (i.e. he participated in, but did not distinguish himself in, several military campaigns). WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 19:46, 22 August 2016 (UTC)

The French National Order of the Legion of Honor is France's highest military award. Higher ranks within the Order, in addition to other criteria, are subject to seniority within the Order. The award being bestowed posthumously onto Lt Guerrier, a higher rank within the Order can never be achieved, thus reiterating that this the highest military award that could be bestowed. Lt Guerrier distinguished himself several times and was awarded the following:
 * He received the Legion of Honour.
 * He received the highest level of citation (mentioned at the Army level) and was awarded the Croix de guerre des théâtres d'opérations extérieurs (War Cross for foreign operational theaters) with "Palm" for his gallantry in Indochina.
 * He received another citation (mentioned at the Division level) and was awarded the Croix de guerre 1939–1945 (War Cross 1939–1945) with "Silver Star" for his gallantry in World War II.
 * He received the Medaille Coloniale. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cmontabe (talk • contribs) 23:29, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment The article mentions that Guerrier received the Croix de Chevalier (the Knight's Cross) of the Legion of Honour. This is, in fact, the lowest grade of that honor, and has, according to the Legion of Honour article, been given out almost one million French and foreign citizens over the centuries. According to the footnote at WP:SOLDIER, only the highest grade of the Legion of Honour (the Grand Cross) would impart presumed notability. The various Croix de Guerre medals are what are known as campaign medals that are given to all service personnel who serve in a particular operational theater. They do not denote any special notability, even if mentioned in dispatches. The Medaille Coloniale is a similar campaign medal, reserved for operations that occurred in territories that were, at the time, French colonies. Again, no special notability is indicated by such a medal. Failing the requirement of having received his nation's highest honor, we would need evidence of significant coverage of Guerrier in independent sources. The mentions you have found of Guerrier in various databases of military honors is not sufficient, as such databases list ALL recipients of such honors. We'd need to see that someone (preferable several someones) took the time to write a significant piece of work (a book or book chapter, or magazine or newspaper article beyond his own home town) to be able to say that this person was notable. (See WP:BIO and WP:GNG.)  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!! 01:53, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails WP:SOLDIER Gbawden (talk) 08:21, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 05:39, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of France-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 05:39, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment. This is a tricky one. Chevalier of the Légion d'honneur for service is far too common (with a maximum permitted number at any one time of "just" 113,425!) to qualify under WP:ANYBIO #1. However, does it qualify under WP:SOLDIER when awarded for gallantry? It does appear to be true that, while it is commonly awarded for service, it is indeed relatively rarely awarded for gallantry, but I'm not sure it is awarded rarely enough to qualify (according to the Légion's website, a maximum of twenty special awards may be made every year to those who do not qualify through length of service to the nation - this includes awards both for gallantry and for such people as Olympic gold medallists - but the implication is that more than this may have been awarded during major wars). I would also dispute that the Croix de guerre is a campaign medal - it is awarded for gallantry (and not, as alleged above, to all personnel who serve in a particular theatre), but it is certainly too low to confer any sort of automatic notability. The problem is that France, in common with some other countries, diverges from the system of first-, second- and third-level gallantry decorations that we see in the USA and the Commonwealth, for instance, and therefore is not really covered as far as decorations are concerned by WP:SOLDIER. Nobody is ever given anything other than Chevalier the first time - you can only get the highest grade by being awarded it five times; so I very much doubt that anyone has ever become a Grand Cross through gallantry alone, thus qualifying nobody under WP:SOLDIER. I would like to see figures for the numbers of Légion d'honneur awards made for gallantry, but sadly I have been unable to find any. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:17, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I refer you to footnote 1 of WP:SOLDIER where the Legion of Honour is specifically mentioned, limiting presumed notability only to those who have received the highest grade of the honor. The article on the Croix de guerre 1939–1945 (France) does not mention any particular gallantry required to be awarded the medal, although the Silver Star that Guerrier earned does denote gallantry. Also, this article published by the Pentagon's Institute of Heraldry does mention that the Croix de Guerre was only awarded to those who were mentioned in dispatches (i.e. had demonstrated some level of gallantry). However, none of this rises to the level of notability generally required for soldiers, and there is no evidence of the kind of significant coverage needed for WP:GNG.  WikiDan61 ChatMe!ReadMe!!
 * I was the original source (although not writer) of that footnote, although it was really a response to those who were saying that the Légion d'honneur for service met the notability requirements (which it obviously does not, given how ubiquitous it is)! And I think you need to reread the Croix de guerre article. "The Croix de guerre may either be awarded as an individual or unit award to those soldiers who distinguish themselves by acts of heroism involving combat with the enemy." The silver star simply denotes the recipient was mentioned in divisional despatches. You will note, I did not say "keep", but I don't think it's an automatic no keep either. -- Necrothesp (talk) 07:45, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   11:03, 30 August 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti Talk  19:16, 6 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.