Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jedi Temple


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   merge to Jedi. Redirect to Jedi for now. Eventually, it can me merged into another article if this shows as a better choice. Tone 20:42, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Jedi Temple

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A very pretty make-believe building, but a topic that lacks evidence of notability established by significant coverage by multiple reliable, third-party sources (article currently lacks any citations whatsoever). "Behind the scenes" blurb at starwars.com is insufficient to establish notability (or even meet writing-about-fiction standards), and Wookieepedia coverage doesn't include a "Behind the Scenes" section (which usually is a good jumping off point for finding third-party coverage). Search engine hits are mostly fan sites and Jedi quasi-religion sites. --EEMIV (talk) 17:56, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment The article as it stands right now is obviously insufficient as it lacks sources and citations, but I'm pretty sure there are reliable third party sources on this topic out there, and that the article could pretty easily be rewritten in a Wikipedia-friendly context placing less focus on the fiction. I'm gonna try to look for some sources before I vote on this.... —  Hunter  Kahn  ( c )  18:19, 26 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Merge to a list of locations in Star Wars article. 76.66.192.144 (talk) 04:48, 27 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose merge - The entirety of the content is unencyclopedic, failing to meet WP:RS, WP:WAF. --EEMIV (talk) 04:53, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep The Jedi Temple is very notable. It should be mentioned that it is 1 km high, which is also very impressive. ChildofMidnight (talk) 07:02, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The last thing we want to do is create a precedent for notability based on size... ~ Amory ( user •  talk  •  contribs ) 19:45, 28 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you suggesting that size doesn't matter? ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You know, for some reason they never believe me when I tell 'em. ~ Amory ( user •  talk  •  contribs ) 01:27, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Merge/Redirect to Jedi. I agree with the nomination - the Template doesn't have a sliver of notability outside of the realm.  It is, however, pretty integral to the Jedi Order, which itself is rather verifiably notable.  This content belongs at Jedi. ~ Amory ( user  •  talk  •  contribs )
 * Comment I would like to reiterate my statement that the Jedi Temple is very notable. A simple google news search shows that it is #3 on the Architect's Journal Star Wars Architecture top 10 . I would not be opposed to merging this and the academy into a more general article on the very notable subject of architecture in the Star Wars universe. I also think they are just fine as stand-alone subjects that have been covered substantially in reliable independent sources. Editors are welcome to make improvements, add citations, trim extraneous or unencyclopedic content, but I encourage all editors to think creatively about how to include subjects of interest like these instead of rushing to delete them. We are a pageless encyclopedia, so including notable elements of fiction does not distract or detract from coverage of non-fictional subjects. They can all exist peacefully and in harmony with one another and the force. ChildofMidnight (talk) 20:50, 31 August 2009 (UTC)
 * As Hunter Kahn implied, it is hard to find sources for this given the sheer amount of fan-based material that doesn't count as reliable. The journal link is nice, but it hardly counts as significant coverage in multiple reliable sources, and it's hard to imagine having an article with two or three times more content than the only source it has.  Have you found any you'd like to add, because I've drawn a blank. ~ Amory ( user  •  talk  •  contribs ) 01:34, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, that article does go into some detail on the building, and that's just based on its architectural notability (#3 mind you of all architectural features in the Star Wars universe!). There is also it's notability as a feature in the plots and storylines of numerous books, comics and movies. Here's another strong indication of notability, inclusion in Universalities: Webster's Quotations, Facts and Phrases By Inc Icon Group International, right next to Jeff Zucker and Jedi Starfighters, both of which have their own articles, and here's a book on matte painting that has an entire chapter on it . Truly the Jedi Temple is very notable and there are more than enough sources on it. The Jedi Academy I'm less sure about, so its content should maybe be merged to Jedi and other articles (like the new one on Architecture of Star Wars, but I don't think a stand-alone does any harm and there are probably sources out there. What kind of classes are done there? Is it an educational model for the future?  How does it differ from our schools? What is it based on? How does it compare to Star Trek and other sci-fi futuristic depictions of academies? People have written on these subjects, whether it's available easily online I'm not so sure, but I think we should work to improve it rather than rush to delete it because it's not a good article yet. To do otherwise would be to side with the dark side. ChildofMidnight (talk) 02:04, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * If you think there's something "we" should do, your most pragmatic course of action is to just start doing it. Asking or expecting others to agree with you doesn't tend to work. Therefore, why spend your energy trying to convince people who are very, very unlikely to be convinced? Our time on Earth is limited; don't use yours knocking your head against a wall. That wall doesn't care about your head, and you can't make it care. What you can do is take a more pragmatic approach. Idealism on Wikipedia leads to grief, 10 times out of 10. You wanna roll those dice? Really? -GTBacchus(talk) 21:16, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The lexicography link is merely a dictionary definition; it hardly substantiates the subject's notability. The blurb of production information can easily be integrated into the article on TPM. All your rhetorical questions are invitations for original research -- no one in the real world cares enough about this topic to offer up such material (which is why no one's offered up any sort of evidence to suggest any significant third-party coverage of this subject: none exists). --EEMIV (talk) 14:00, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. This is a very notable part of an extremely notable franchise. The temple is covered in great detail in a number of the books and plays an important role in the movies. It is the scene of a pivotal part of one of the movies. Yes, I am a SW fan, so no need to point out that I'm part of the SW project. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:32, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm also a SW fan and part of the project. Can you point toward any significant *third-party* sources that discuss this subject in sufficient detail to substantiate your claim of notability? What text offers sufficient material from the real-world perspective to justify -- and substantiate -- an article on this subject? Being a setting for an important scene doesn't matter all that much -- that's the same reason we don't have article's on e.g. Willie Loman's home. --EEMIV (talk) 16:02, 1 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I recommend creating an article: List of Star Wars buildings, parallel to other articles in Category:Star Wars location lists. Whatever content can be verified in reliable 3rd party sources can be included there, both for this topic, and for the related Jedi Academy, and for any other important buildings. Any building in that article that seems to have enough detailed information about it to split off as something more than a stub, can be split off when that becomes clear, leaving a main template at the list. -GTBacchus(talk) 15:36, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Merge/redirect somewhere... I'd prefer Coruscant, the planet the temple's located on, although GTBacchus's idea isn't bad either. I'm not convinced there's enough real-world notability for the temple itself to justify a separate article - the journal source is nice but isn't very long, and it's nothing that can't be covered in design notes for Coruscant, Architecture of Star Wars or the film articles. BryanG (talk) 05:55, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.