Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jennifer Culture


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   - Delete - Peripitus (Talk) 11:46, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Jennifer Culture

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Non-notable band. In Google search, I found only a couple of trivial mentions. No evidence of meeting WP:MUSIC. BRMo (talk) 23:18, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. Definitely fails WP:MUSIC. TheRetroGuy (talk) 23:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment - not a single mention in Factiva, which suggests they're completely non-notable, but does the band meet WP:MUSIC in that it "Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable"? Two members (Seth Horan and Ed Toth) went on to join three notable bands (Vertical Horizon, Darwin's Waiting Room and The Doobie Brothers). Somno (talk) 01:23, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  00:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep as per above.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.153.220.189 (talk) 01:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep, as per above. It appears that, at minimum, Toth and Horan are, indeed, notable, without question. It also appears that another member Lazaro Lazo has been shown to be notable. It would appear that this band almost certainly meets the WP Music standard.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.153.220.253 (talk) 06:38, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Lazaro Lazo is not notable. I have AFD'd that article as well. Wheelchair Epidemic (talk) 20:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep per above.  --Fsl dude (talk) 08:06, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. So let me get this straight; The only reason this band is notable is because some of the members went on to form a more notable band? Rwiggum  (Talk /Contrib ) 17:46, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * YES. Why dont you have a try looking into WP MUSIC notability standards? --70.156.170.194 (talk) 20:32, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. So, it seems that technically the band is notable according to WP:MUSIC. However, the band itself didn't do much that was notable, and the article cites NO sources. Once sources are added I will change by vote . Rwiggum  (Talk /Contrib ) 20:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. On second, thought, I'm keeping my vote as "delete" for now. A Google search for the term "Jennifer Culture" provides only 825 results, few of which are for the band. When the search is narrowed down to ""Jennifer Culture" Band", there are only 164 results. Also, if you were to read the portion of WP:MUSIC that you were citing more closely, you would see that it says "Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable; note that it is often most appropriate to use redirects in place of articles on side projects, early bands and such, and that common sense exceptions always apply.". It is clear that the band is not notable enough for it's own article, and that the best course of option would be to redirect to Vertical Horizon and merge any useful content there. Rwiggum  (Talk /Contrib ) 20:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

If you actually look into the history of both bands, that would only confuse matters. The reason being, is that both bands previously existed separately from each other and of their own accord. Yes, both Horan and Toth were later in Vertical Horizon, but they joined at different times. In other words, VH was NOT a spinoff band, per se, of JC. The only way for this to be clearly explained, is by having the two pages continue to separately exist (as it is now), just as the bands were separately existing. I really believe that, when in doubt, error must be made on the side that WP exists to make subjects (and their histories) MORE easily understood, as opposed to the opposite.--70.156.170.194 (talk) 21:11, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * The problem there is that the band still just isn't notable enough for their own page. It doesn't matter if they didn't join the band at the same time. All the information about who joined and when could be incorporated into the "history" section of the Vertical Horizion page. It doesn't have to be a spin-off band to be re-directed. Rwiggum  (Talk /Contrib ) 21:19, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

That would be counter to the common sense clause in WP MUSIC. Again, I defer to my previous statement. The purpose of WP is NOT to confuse matters.--70.156.170.194 (talk) 21:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * How would it be counter to the common-sense clause? Also, I fail to see how making the page a redirect would confuse matters. The purpose of Wikipedia is also not to have useless pages for non-notable subjects if avoidable. This page will likely not grow beyond a stub, so it seems obvious to me that the usable information contained therein should be merged into the article of the band with which they are most closely associated, being Vertical Horizon. Rwiggum  (Talk /Contrib ) 21:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

That is completely absurd, on so many levels. I don't know where to even start. The main point is that you even admitted yourself that they ARE notable. (As if we need your vote, one way or another.) WP MUSIC is very clear. You are going to have a TON of people very upset with you, if they are merged. (Plus, most of WP is stubs.) I again defer to my previous comments. (I'm done..over and out.) Have a good one.--70.156.170.194 (talk) 21:55, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Simply calling my arguments absurd is not an argument in itself. You still have not responded to why making the page a re-direct would be confusing or counter to wikipedia's Common Sense clause. I don't care if a "ton of people are upset with me", because the band has not been shown to be notable, and no amount of disgruntled Wikipedia users can change that.  Rwiggum  (Talk /Contrib ) 22:01, 3 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep per above.--70.156.170.194 (talk) 20:33, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I'll add the following, since you asked (and then I need a break from WP for a while): It would be like merging Canada, the US and Mexico together. After all, they ARE all in North America, right? So, let's do that. It makes the same amount of sense.--70.156.170.194 (talk) 22:50, 3 August 2008 (UTC):
 * That's hardly the same thing. For instance, take a look at the page for The Get Up Kids. The article begins with a summation of some of the earlier bands that the band members were in, giving the reader a good introduction to the band's origins without making a new page for a non-notable band. Rwiggum  (Talk /Contrib ) 23:26, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

As for proving my point, this last one really takes the cake. I really should just stop, because you are pretty much just taking care of my argument for me, all by yourself. OK, first of all, it appears that the Get Up Kids are just BARELY notable themselves. Secondly, it appears they have had several spinoff bands (none of which appears to be notable, on its own) and EACH of these bands has its own SEPARATE and relatively lengthy entry.--70.156.170.194 (talk) 10:36, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, you hit the nail on the head. Jennifer Culture was NOT an earlier band OF Vertical Horizon, in that, they had nothing, at all, to do with each other for the first several years of each of them. It does make sense for the Get Up Kids, however, because that band was, apparently, a direct spinoff band of a previously existing band...and then the Kids had their own spinoff bands..etc etc. It is kind of like a timeline. I see that. But, the history of JC and VH is not like that, at all, which is why it does not make sense in this case. I really don't care, though, as it is no skin off of my nose. If it is merged, you will have, likely hundreds, if not thousands, of VH fans (and maybe a few JC fans) take to the streets and then take over WP. I, personally, will have nothing more to do with any of this, in any way, whatsoever. I wash my hands of it entirely. But, my logic, votes, comments, views, opinions and research results all remain the same.--70.156.170.194 (talk) 10:45, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I just saw your message on my temporary talk page. I'm not turned off of WP, but I am turned off, a bit, by some aspects of all the red tape, some of which I believe actually serves to lessen the quality of WP. But, that is a discussion for another time and place. But, in any event, I appreciate your offer and I just may take you up on that. So, no hard feelings. I know that none of this is personal, on either end. It's just a debate; one which will hopefully serve its intended purpose, in the end. Thanks again..and take care. I'm sure I will pop up again at some point. :) --70.156.170.194 (talk) 11:14, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Hey, good to hear you aren't turned off on the whole ordeal. However, how are The Get Up Kids not notable? They've had multiple world tours with the likes of Weezer and Green Day, their second album singlehandedly made Vagrant Records the label it is today, and they were at the forefront of the second-wave midwestern emo-punk scene in the mid 90's. I only ask so I can get an idea of what you see as notable for a band, so that you might have some future reference. And no, The Get Up Kids were not a spin-off band of any band. Two of the members were in a band called Kingpin, one was in a band called Secret Decoder Ring, another was in Coalesce, and another wasn't even in a band at all, so it puts it more on the level of Vertical Horizon than you think. Likewise, if you do not feel the information belongs on the Vertical Horizon page, then why not on the pages of the band members themselves? That feels like it would be a more apt solution considering your objections. Rwiggum  (Talk /<sub style="color:black;">Contrib ) 17:48, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I suppose I will have to agree with you regarding TGUKs' notability.--70.156.170.194 (talk) 18:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Hey Rwiggum...whats up?! I thought we had made nice...why are you slammin all of my boys now??? Even though most everything Ive contributed to in WP music is getting slammed, I still stand by THAT THIS BAND IS CLEARLY NOTABLE AND DOES IN FACT MEET WP MUSIC STANDARDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THIS IS A FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You FREAKIN people!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAKE THE F##K UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.156.170.194 (talk) 02:16, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

WPBandC6 makes it COMPLETELY CLEAR that this band IS NOTABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have to question...what the hell is wrong with you people??!! Are you having touble with ESOL classes??? GRADUATE that first and THEN come back to WP!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.156.170.194 (talk) 03:57, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete, fails notability per WP:MUSIC.   Esradekan Gibb    "Talk" 04:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete - WP:BAND makes it clear that "common sense exceptions" to the policy are explicitly defined, and this band is completely non-notable otherwise. Wheelchair Epidemic (talk) 20:24, 4 August 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.