Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jennifer Howe


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:41, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Jennifer Howe

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No top tier fights so fails to meet WP:NMMA and coverage fails to meet WP:GNG. Papaursa (talk) 19:48, 1 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Papaursa (talk) 19:48, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:14, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:14, 1 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete As per above.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:46, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete Doesn't pass WP:NMMA LiberatorLX (talk) 22:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Keep Pending further discussion in Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Mixed_martial_arts/MMA_notability. Jennifer Howe was considered the top American WMMA competitor and one of the best in the world.  Her entire career pre-dates the criteria you are using from that notability page.  All significant WMMA fights/accomplishments have not occurred in the last 5 years, as the standards suggest.  Wikipedia standards are fungible and this would be a clear example of using rigid guidelines to throw out an article in the face of common sense.BigKennyK (talk) 20:44, 6 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, SarahStierch (talk) 01:33, 8 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete Both Smackgirls (Jewels predecessor) and Strikeforce existed before, during, and after her career and she still had no top tier fights. Also fails WP:GNG and no evidence of being "one of the best in the world."Mdtemp (talk) 16:56, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment Strikeforce did not have it's first MMA event, male or female, until 2006... after Howe's career. While Smackgirl did exist, regardless of Howe's non-competition in that league, it is not regarded as Tier A under WP:NMMA .  While Jewels purchased Smackgirl's assets, it is a wholly separate entity, both for the purposes of real life business and the standards you cite.  According to current standards, the first notable WMMA bout ever occurred at Strikeforce:  Triple Threat on 12/8/2006.  Good sense should tell us the problem is the standard, not this or a similar article.  BigKennyK (talk) 00:55, 11 December 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment In response to the multiple WP:GNG remarks and the User:Mdtemp's snarky response, this is what a quick internet search reveals:
 * http://www.fightmatrix.com/all-time-mma-rankings/ - Fight Matrix's all-time rankings, Howe is #5.
 * http://www.fightmatrix.com/fightmatrix-awards/ - Fight Matrix's Women's Fighter of the Year 2003.
 * http://www.apocalypsemma.com/2013/01/womens-mma-comes-of-age/ - 2013 article - "almost everyone agrees the first best female mixed martial artist was Jennifer Howe"
 * http://scorecardmma.com/index.php/female-mma/female-all-time - Howe is #18 all-time openweight and #7 all-time 135lb./bantamweight
 * Countless articles from a variety of publications that mention Howe's quality in the context of discussing fighters she has competed against.
 * The article is poorly sourced, but that does not mean the subject itself fails WP:GNG. These are just examples, so please don't waste time cherry picking attacks on the source material.  These just most succinctly illustrate the point.  When the article is repaired, the most reliable sources among the many on the internet should be relied upon.  BigKennyK (talk) 01:29, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete Since you won't allow me to "attack" the sources, I'll just say I question their reliability and significance (certainly ratings are irrelevant). Could you tell me what "top tier" organizations you believe she fought for to get her 3 top tier fights? 204.126.132.231 (talk) 19:12, 13 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Part of the point is that standard's insufficiency. The organizations classified as "Tier A" were selected by looking at rankings at a moment in time after Howe's career and largely without considering women's MMA at all and counting the organizations with fighters in the various weight classes' top-10s.  Had that been done during Howe's career, Iowa Challenge, HookNShoot, International Fighting Championship, and Extreme Challenge all would have qualified at periods in time for having a large number of the significant women's fights/fighters (HNS and IFC most notably).  I am NOT suggesting those should be elevated wholesale to "Tier A", but that is how the list would look if the same original standard for creating the men's notable MMA organizations were applied during Howe's career.  What we have now is a standard that says "no notable women's MMA fights occured before Strikeforce:  Triple Threat on 12/8/2006."  I think common sense tells us that's a terrible standard, and this AfD discussion should highlight that.  My suggestion is that we apply WP:COMMON here, Keep the article, and initiate a fuller discussion of the standard (perhaps further separating male and female criteria and time periods as pertains to specific organizations). BigKennyK (talk) 09:05, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * Delete I do not believe the arguments presented by the keep camp are strong enough to supersede the NMMA guideline. The fact of the matter is that the SIGCOV isn't strong enough because Howe is the focus of multiple notable publications . Mkdw talk 03:26, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.