Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jens Alfke

Jens Alfke
A software engineer employed by Apple, he has worked as an individual contributor on a variety of projects for Apple. No evidence he is even notable within Apple. He might be in the top 5 or 10 percent of American software engineers in terms of the significance of his work, but that is still tens of thousands of people. Therefore, non-notable. --BM 19:39, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * We have a page on Stickies. We have a page on iChat.  We have a page on Safari.  Sounds like he might be notable to me. AlistairMcMillan 19:43, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * The article says he is on the Safari team. So what?   As for iChat and Stickies, there are many such programs.  The article doesn't indicate that this guy is considered all that notable even by his employer.  How senior is he in the technical hierarchy there?   The article does not say.  Apple employs probably hundreds, if not thousands, of software engineers.   Is he even in the top 50 of them?    The burden for notability should be carried by the article.  The reader/VfD voter should not have to do independent research to determine it.   --BM 19:48, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * I just started the page half an hour ago. Perhaps you could give it a week or two to see how it develops? AlistairMcMillan 19:49, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The article is already several thousand bytes. When were you planning to mention something notable? --BM 19:57, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * One guy developed Stickies. A decade later it is still included in the Macintosh OS.  Having been re-written twice pretty much from scratch.  Does that not make the guy notable? AlistairMcMillan 20:00, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * No, a lot of people have worked on the Mac OS over the years. Presumably, they all worked on something, and a lot of that code is probably still around and used.  That does not make the coder notable.   There are tons of sticky-type programs on all sorts of platforms; such programs are not high-tech.  Ditto, iChat.  Maybe it is just because you haven't done a very good job communicating what a genius this guy is and how highly regarded he is by everyone, but he comes across as a competent programmer employed by a big company in the computer industry, of which there are literally tens, if not hundreds, of thousands in the United States alone. --BM 20:09, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * BTW We've had a red link for Jens Alfke on the Stickies page for six months now. AlistairMcMillan 20:04, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * So what? Besides, you wrote that article too.   If I check, I'll probably find it was you who put his name into the article.  What is your source of information about him, by the way?   Are you a friend of his, or perhaps you are him?  --BM 20:09, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Wow. So you couldn't be bothered to check the edit history on Stickies and now you are making stupid allegations. Stunning working my friend. Truly first class. For the record, I didn't add the link in Stickies, I don't know the guy and I am not him. AlistairMcMillan 20:18, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * So what is your source of information about him, then? --BM 20:24, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What is your allegation specifically? Are you still looking for confirmation that I am not Jens? AlistairMcMillan 20:40, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * No, I don't think you are Jens, and I think I've found his on-line resume/job history. Although you could have answered my question.   You know, this guy is in his thirties.  He's worked on this project; he's worked on that project; team member here; team member there.  If I advertised for software engineers, I'd expect to get dozens of resumes that look like this.  OK, his might be one of the ones I'd interview, maybe, so he looks a bit better than average on paper, mainly because he's worked for companies, and on projects, I've heard of.  He looks like he has a good career in front of him, but he doesn't look any more notable than thousands of other Silicon Valley types who've worked for Apple, Sun, etc over the years.  And that is just Silicon Valley.  I'm amazed you think he is notable enough for the Wikipedia.  --BM 20:53, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Are you a Mac user? Do you follow software development at all? He single-handedly developed Stickies, which a decade later is still part of Mac OS X. He pretty much single-handedly developed iChat. User:Chmod007 created a red link when he started the Stickies article. You've made it clear you don't think he is notable. How about we see what everyone else thinks. AlistairMcMillan 22:15, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, I'm not a Mac user; but I am a software developer, and I'm not overly impressed by these things. Moreover, if they were actually very impressive, I would have expected more recognition from his employers. But as you say, its time to let other people decide. --BM 22:29, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * "more recognition from his employers"??? What do you expect?  "JENS ALFKE" in 100pt letters on the front page of their website? They've been paying the guy for over ten years (with a break in between) what more should they do for him? AlistairMcMillan 22:33, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Well, being employed 10 years as a software engineer doesn't qualify someone as notable, or else there are probably a 100,000 notable software engineers.  I've been employed for 25 years as a software engineer, and I don't think I'm notable.     Both Apple and Sun have technical career tracks that go up very high in the company.   What I meant was that I'd expect to see him in a very senior technical position at Apple -- a senior Architect, Consulting Engineer, technical lead of a major project, etc, one of the maybe 30 or 40 top engineers in the company.  --BM 22:41, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Did you even read the article before marking it for deletion? He left the company after a few years and then came back.  Since then he has been technical lead on Java AWT.  Lead developer on iChat and now (AFAIK) the lead developer adding RSS/Atom feed reading to Safari (a highly publicised feature ).  And like you said he is only in his thirties.  And you are aware that all the Stickies-like programs that are available on Windows are copying Jens' Stickies program, right? AlistairMcMillan 22:59, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Keep Come on BM, this is way too personal. And you can't use the numbers argument ('there must be 100,000...') so what? Wikipedia hasn't got to fit into a binder has it? The article needs editing but not deleting. user:Btljs 23:12, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * No vote yet. I don't think being "the developer of Stickies" warrants an article; it's not an integral or CUSP-y part of the OS like QuickTime, or the Finder. Nor is it a major separate application (like iTunes or iMovie). The statement that Windows equivalents are "copies" bothers me, too; I think I recall similar programs as far back as MS-DOS (in Borland's SideKick, IIRC. I've never used Tornado Notes but some regarded it highly). "Stickies" is not a seminal application like VisiCalc. The work on AppleScript seems much important to me. But in that regard, it bothers me that the AppleScript article mentions "Sal Soghoian, William Cook, Donn Denman, Warren Harris, Kurt Piersol" and does not mention Jens Alfke. (The "just started the article" argument always leaves me cold, by the way... I don't see why an article needs to be put into the main namespace before a good first draft is complete). Dpbsmith (talk) 23:48, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * By copies I wasn't referring to note-taking applications in general, just specifically the ones that attempt to duplicate the post-it note look of Stickies for Windows. A google search for "Stickies" returns five attempts to duplicate Stickies for other platforms in the first page of results alone.     AlistairMcMillan 00:15, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Keep. This guy has an interview with him in a respected magazine, who call him the "world famous creator of the Stickies desk accessory". I think he is notable. -Ld | talk 01:04, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep: Seems notable enough to me. DCEdwards1966 01:30, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)


 * Invented Stickies? God bless him. Definite keep.Dr Zen 01:34, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Weak keep.--JuntungWu 08:12, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep as notable enough. DreamGuy 08:49, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. This VfD is either elitism or sour grapes from another software developer who hasn't developed software that is useful enough to warrant a profile article of his own. It's important to understand the unique history of Apple, where applications such as Graphing Calculator have been developed by individual contributors who were not at all "senior in the technical hierarchy". If anything, Wikipedia should have more articles profiling the developers of the tools that so many users find useful, regardless of whether they are senior or not. &mdash; DV 10:55, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Please keep the ad hominem comments to yourself.  You are entitled to think this persons contributions are notable, but bear in mind that you are setting a precedent that will make a very large number of software engineers notable, including me.  (However I won't write my own article.)    If that is what you want to do, fine. Other professions (such as porn actress) seem almost automatically notable on the Wikipedia, so why not software engineers?  --BM 12:59, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * You appealed to personal considerations when you stated, "I've been employed for 25 years as a software engineer, and I don't think I'm notable" and you then went on to deride the superior accomplishments of a respected developer partly because they are not "senior in the technical hierarchy". The merits of Jens Alfke's accomplishments are not limited by his job title. You can throw around "ad hominem" all you want, but it won't do much to hide your sour grapes attitude. I try to assume other editors contributions are made in good faith, but this is VfD abuse. I'm really surprised that someone with 25 years of experience as a software developer is trying to minimize the accomplishments of a fellow developer in this manner.
 * Your interjection of "porn actresses" into this discussion is a straw man, please compare apples to apples, for example, would you object if another editor were to expand the profile of Bruce Leak? Would you object if another editor wrote a profile on Peter Hoddie? It's quite an omission that Hoddie isn't even mentioned in the QuickTime article. &mdash; DV 15:22, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * VfD discussions are inherently about whether the article subjects are notable. It should be possible to argue against the subject of a biographical article being notable without being accused of "sour grapes" or of trying to "minimize" someone's accomplishments.  For me, someone whose claim to fame is that he has worked ten years for Apple and has written applications like Stickies or iChat is not very notable, even if Stickies itself is (which is debatable).    Am I not allowed to voice that opinion?   Having said that, on Wikipedia every actor who has ever played a minor role in any movie or TV show, anybody who has written a single episode of Star Trek, anybody who has been a backup singer for Ashlee Simpson, every band that has ever released an album, every writer of any book sold on Amazon, etc are notable.  So perhaps it is only fair that software engineers be considered notable if they wrote programs that desktop computer users have used.  --BM 18:35, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Keep, appears noteworthy enough for inclusion in Wikipedia. Not paper, et cetera.  [[User:GRider|GRider\talk]] 21:58, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Intrigue 00:25, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)
 * Keep. Notable person, 4K hits on Google too. --Andylkl 11:03, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)


 * Edit. Seems a long article for someone of questionable notability.  I can't see much use in having such a lengthy biographical article for someone who created a note-taking application. &mdash; Chris 02:33, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)


 * Strong keep. Again, I am sorely disappointed that the minimal effort of 5 seconds research was not put forth before nominating this article to be deleted.  This individual is clearly notable and far above the ever-shifting notability bar on Wikipedia.  GRider\talk 18:43, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)