Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeung Lai Chuen (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. (non-admin closure)  B E C K Y S A Y L E S  02:29, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

Jeung Lai Chuen
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Relisting as requested by participants at the DRV SpinningSpark 09:20, 2 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep. Searching on gbooks under the Chinese characters rather than the English transliteration finds 32 book results. I can't read any of them, but some of them look like they have something substantive to say.  In addition, there is,
 * (Taiping Institute) which has about 670 words of prose on him
 * (Global Pak Mei Martial Arts Association - in Chinese) has about 840 words of prose on him (after running through a machine translation)
 * (New York Pak Mei Kung Fu Cultural Preservation Association) has about 750 words of prose on him
 * (Shing Tak Tong - Pak Mei Sam Choi Kung Fu Association - in Chinese) has a non-trivial discussion of him
 * naamkyun.com says "... it is unquestionably acknowledged that Pak Mei Paai is a system of kung fu that was formally developed and organized by Master Cheung Lai Chuen (宗師張禮泉) at the turn of the 20th Century."
 * pakmeipai.nl says "Pak Mei Pai founder Cheung Lai Chun (張禮泉宗師) has been responsible for the development and popularization of Pak Mei Boxing."
 * (Simon Lui Pak Mei Athletic Association of Colorado) has an 1800 word article "History of The Pak Mei Clan", which is largely about Jeung Lai Chuen
 * ...and now I've started looking for sources, I realise I did not really need to limit myself to Chinese language book sources. Books and magazines found using English terms include;

SpinningSpark 09:25, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Black Belt magazine, April 1981 devotes hundreds of words to the person in an article about Pak Mei
 * He appears in the index of Kung Fu: Martial Art and Combat Sport and there appears to be a substantial piece on him, from snippet view "The first Grandmaster of white eyebrow in Southern China was Cheung Lai Chuen. He learned the system from a monk named Jok Fat who bad been given permission by his Sifu Jong Wei to teach the art if he could find someone worthy."
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 10:53, 2 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment The above references have been added to the article (not inline) and I copied the relevant biographical information from the Bak Mei article.  The references still suffer from the fact that they are mainly primary but they seem to indicate that the subject was the main formulator of the system (not its semi-legendary name sake) and hence more important that just another cog in the wheel.  I do not expect vast coverage of the individual in a non-sporting style.  I am still not sure that a Redirect is not the best option - not even sure Bak Mei is a notable style (its own article has issues) but I think now a more informed debate can continue.Peter Rehse (talk) 11:31, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The references are not primary, that is a silly criticism. Some can perhaps be criticised for not being peer reviewed scholarly papers, but publications by a club or sports association on history of a sport does not amount to primary.  Primary sources would be sources written by Jeung Lai Chuen himself or contemporary correspondence with him or a contemporary witness to events in his life. SpinningSpark 14:41, 2 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Primary is a pretty relative term - these are organizations writing about themselves and their origins. Call it what you will there is a dearth of independent sources for either the subject or his style which leaves the question is he a founder of a notable style - something that would meet WP:MANOTE.  For WP:GNG I would think you need more than club websites.Peter Rehse (talk) 15:34, 2 January 2015 (UTC)


 * I have no idea how you can come to that conclusion when there are hundreds of books covering Pak Mei, including this one that says "There is a thriving civilian Pak Mei tradition in southern China, largely due to the teaching efforts of Chang Lai-chuen (1880-1964)." And you do not even need to try different transliterations to get that result, "Bak Mei" also gets book results in the hundreds.  Mostly, these books don't have preview, but I simply cannot accept that there is not enough material there to meet Wikipedia requirements for anyone who wants to get down a library and do the research. Spinning</b><b style="color:#4840A0">Spark</b> 17:15, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Well that is the problem with using a semi-legendary name as your purported origin. Several styles, claim origin to Bak Mai, not just the one founded by the subject and to make things more difficult the name has become part of popular culture complete with movies and books.  A similar situation would be for example Ninja styles in Japanese martial arts especially what we see in the West.   That one source you pointed out is from the true shaolin temple based in Oregon - sorry that raises red flags. You seem to want to force me into a position I have not taken - all I am saying showing notability is difficult to the point where I find it difficult to decide the best course.Peter Rehse (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This is getting off topic because this discussion is not about the Bak Mei article, but your statements that "several styles, claim origin to Bak Mai" and "the name has become part of popular culture" speak for notability, not detracts from it. My point was that anything that has books written on it in the many hundreds cannot possibly not be notable.  The fact that some of them are written by practitioners does not detract from that any more than most books on physics are written by physicists.  As for your comparison with ninja, I rest my case, that is unarguably notable and none of the points you raise would detract from that in the slightest. The truth of the relationship of Cheung to Bak Mei is not really relevant to settling this AFD.  That sources talk about him in relation to Bak Mei is the only thing that is of importance here. <b style="background:#FAFAD2;color:#C08000">Spinning</b><b style="color:#4840A0">Spark</b> 00:56, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Mostly off topic but my point is that using a name that is notable does not make you notable - there are no styles that can claim an unbroken lineage to Bak Mai (the person) and it is not even sure "White Eyebrows" existed. I never said the term Bak Mai (or Ninja) were not notable just questioned whether Jeung Lai Chuen is the founder of a notable style (which like several unrelated others like to claim a legendary origin).  Searching for Bak Mai to establish his notability is to use your term - silly - it just doesn't discriminate enough.   Does he meet WP:MANOTE or WP:GNG that is all I am questioning.  By the by nothing I am saying contradicts the Bak Mei article.Peter Rehse (talk) 18:10, 3 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep Sources honestly aren't the best as many aren't truly independent of the subject (they are from folks that practice the style he created if I read them correctly) and even the Black Belt article looks to be poor. It would be best to build the article using sources that are more independent where available. Hobit (talk) 15:26, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the list of China-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC)
 * <small class="delsort-notice">Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:10, 2 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep per Spinningspark's numerous sources and my comment at the previous AfD: "*Keep. Here are two sources about the subject:<ol><li> The book notes: ...and a rare book called Pak Mei Kung Fu: White Eyebrow by H. B. Un. I purchased the book on sale for fewer than fifty dollars; it now sells for over eighty bucks online! Therein lies the story of Great Grand Master Cheung Lai Chuen, who in his youth was defeated in friendly combat by a Buddhist monk named Lin Sang. When Lin Sang would no teach him kung fu, Cheun Lai sought out Lin Sang's teacher Joke Fat Wan. After much persistency, Joke Fat taught Cheung Lai Pak Mei kung fu. Joke Fat was a third-generation sifu and student of Gwong Wei, who was the sole student of Pak Mei, himself founder of the art. Pak Mei was one of the five legendary survivors of the Southern Shaolin Temple that had been destroyed. The book goes on to tell how Cheung Lai Chuen rose to become the Great Grand Master and once defended himself against a town of fifty men. After speaking of much form and technique, H. B. Un concludes the book with a piece of wisdom: fighting is dangerous and should be avoided!" This source indicates that the subject has received significant coverage in the book Pak Mei Kung Fu: White Eyebrow.</li><li>The subject is also mentioned here.</li></ol> It is highly likely that the subject passes Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". It would be Systemic bias to delete this article about a notable Chinese martial artist when there is likely significant coverage about the subject in offline non-English sources, which are permitted per Verifiability. Cunard (talk) 06:04, 1 January 2015 (UTC) Cunard (talk) 05:05, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Link to the deletion review that led to this relist: Deletion review/Log/2015 January 1. Cunard (talk) 05:05, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.