Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jewish Israeli stone throwing


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. The somewhat predictable participants somewhat predictably disagree about whether this is an OR/SYNTH aggregation of incidents, or a topic that is properly sourced and described as such. This can't be resolved by admin fiat, much like the underlying real-word conflict. The acrimony in this discussion will probably need discretionary sanctions, which I'll look at separately.  Sandstein  11:18, 23 May 2018 (UTC)

Jewish Israeli stone throwing

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Article, (long tagged for notability, also see discussions on talk page,) is a COATRACK from which to hang a series of unrelated instances in which a Jew living in Mandatory Palestine or in Israel has thrown stones. But is this even a TOPIC? I can find no INDEPTH analysis showing that Jewish Israeli stone throwing exists as a topic. Article is divided among, "Historical" covering dramatic moments during Israel's war of independence when, for example, the defenders of Convoy of 35 ran out of ammo and resorted to defending themselves with stones. "By settlers", which should be discussed at Israeli settler violence. And "Ultra-Orthodox incidents", covering rocks thrown by Haredi agitators at Sabbath-breakers, immodestly dressed women, and so forth. The incidents listed in the article have nothing in common, certainly not a common topic. Moreover they are sourced to news reports merely show that stones were thrown. To keep an article, we need to have a coherent topic and sources that address that INDEPTH.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:56, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, I agree the topic doesn't seem worthy enough of inclusion. It's a hodgepog of items intended to force a topic. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:37, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per Sir Joseph above.--יניב הורון (talk) 23:18, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 04:07, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment You people are hypocrites who have no shame. A coatrack about Jews throwing stones should be deleted yesterday, but the corresponding coatrack about Palestinians throwing stones is an important article that must be developed. According to the documentary record, Jews and their ancestors have been throwing stones in the Land of Israel for as long as they have lived there, but you have the gall to ask whether it's "a thing"? Seriously, did your parents drop you on your heads as infants? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:50, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Please try to remain civil and refrain from personal attacks. Sir Joseph (talk) 12:53, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Sir Joseph, condescension is also a personal attack. Drmies (talk) 00:38, 19 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep It is going to take some time to differentiate sources discussing Palestinian stone throwing between Jewish, even when you literally search for "Jewish stone throwing". Nonetheless, news cites discuss it and specific instances, and journals do as well. I agree with Malik that it is highly hypocritical to ask whether this is "a thing"; I have no doubt that the nom would gladly vote keep for an article on an instance (let alone the topic overall) of Palestinian stone throwing, yet chooses to ignore the notability of this subject.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 15:43, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Please provide a link, or name of the "journal" article, your link leads only to the library at Penn State. Your other sources argue for redirecting this page to Israeli settler violence.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:46, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * It's also not a "thing" as you say to have this article because while there most certainly may be instances of stone throwing by Jews in Israel, it's not really ingrained in culture and methods as it is for the Palestinians. We don't need an article on every form of violence, the reason why Palestinian stone throwing is notable is because it is a distinct form notable to the area. Sir Joseph (talk) 19:55, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * If you read the sources provided above, as well as the recent and currently ongoing entries on the TP, you see that, on the contrary stone throwing is very much ingrained in at least two Israeli Jewish subcultures: the Haredi and the settler cultures.XavierItzm (talk) 12:30, 16 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep- plenty of indepth sources already exist in the article. In fact, far more sources exist for this than the average article that the nominator argues should be kept at AfD. As others have stated above, seems to be a politically motivated nomination in attempt to present a one-sided view of these incidents.--Rusf10 (talk) 01:15, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * To prove my point, E.M. Gregory just created this article about a single event, but somehow thinks an article with an overview of multiple events is inappropriate. There is a clear double standard here to create articles that make Palestinians look bad while at the same time delete all articles that make Israelis look bad.--Rusf10 (talk) 02:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep and better yet Merge with Palestinian stone throwing. Stone throwing does seem to be a cultural thing to do in Israel and associated occupied territories as a well-ingrained custom, at least among some groups living there.  The article features very-well sourced Jewish Orthodox (Haredi) stone throwing, for example.  I think we all can agree that it is only small minorities that practice this rather notorious custom, but small minority customs is no grounds for sanitizing the Wikipedia.  I mean, we do have several articles on transgenderism in the U.S., for example, and no-one argued for deletion just because a only a very tiny percentage of U.S. people are transgender.  Likewise, insofar as there are Jews in Israel who for decades engage in routine stone throwing, it is a fair article to have.  But I do think it is unfortunate to segregate each Israeli article into two.  I would just merge into a single "stone throwing in Israel and occupied territories" article.  XavierItzm (talk) 11:29, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note that this article was started by Nishidani the principal editor of Palestinian stone-throwing. Lots of discussion on the archived talk pages show that a merge to that article won't fly.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:05, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Very unfortunate that there isn't a consensus for merging. In that case a keep looks like the only option.XavierItzm (talk) 19:03, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * XavierItzm, you note above that this article is about stone-throwing within "two Israeli Jewish subcultures: the Haredi and the settler cultures." But given that the Haredi subculture throws stones for highly focuses reasons (at women holding a type of prayer service they disapprove of, or at gay parades,) while the fringe of the settler movement throws stones in as a tit-for-tat response to Palestinian stone throwing, you need ot explain in what sense these two things constitute a single topic?   Logic seems to dictate that we cover settler rock-throwing at Israeli settler violence, and cver Haredi stone-throwing at  Haredi political violence, Haredi stone-throwing or similar.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:05, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Not sure one option is exclusive of another. Generally in Wikipedia one seeks for the untrained seeker to easily find information, and then follow links if so desired.  Certainly one could have a page on "Jewish Israeli stone-throwing" and link to more detail on the proper subsections of Settler Violence and of Haredi Violence, or vice-versa.  This is the solution adopted in the "public toilets" page, for example: just because Pissoir is a very specific (and pluri-millenial) example of public toilet, it does not mean that the Pissoir page gets deleted; on the contrary, "public toilets" links to Pissoir which has more detail on urinary-only public toilets from Roman times to the present and yet pissoirs are also discussed on the public toilets page. Borrowing again from the Pissoir analogy, historical Jewish stone-throwing from Palestine Mandate times probably fits better here than under Settler or under Haredi violence.XavierItzm (talk) 19:03, 16 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Palestinian stone-throwing covers the stone-throwing by Israeli settlers in depth and detail. Subhead was already there when Nishidani started this page, making it appear that Nishidani's motives were WP:POINTy.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:05, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * That section provides the narrative that Israeli only throw stones in self-defense. You are throwing a lot of accusations, but your nomination of this article for deletion seems very WP:POINTy to me, especially since you just created Killing of Esther Ohana.--Rusf10 (talk) 16:20, 16 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep This article was created from the parallel Palestinian stone-throwing article because several editors there objected to the information re Jewish Israeli stone-throwing I entered there per WP:NPOV. E.M Gregory with a record of writing up immediately articles to document Palestinian violence, stone throwing,etc. dislikes this reminder that what he finds appalling,sufficiently so to warrant a wiki page, is also quite common, esp. among West Bank settlers. You can'ìt have it both ways: objecting to a section on Jewish stone throwing in the West Bank on the Palestinian stone-throwing page, and, when the material is moved to its own separate page, object to the existence of that page on wikipedia, testifies only to bias and distaste. The request it be deleted is a patent abuse of our obligations to be neutral (i.e.e covering both sides particularly when the behaviour is identical).The phenomenal is far more common than our page so far documents, and occurs almost on a daily basis among settlers targeting Palestinian farmers, as anyone who keeps tuned to reportage on Youtube can see. And EMG, you should have notified me you proposed deletion of my work.Had it not been for the courtesy and procedural rectitude of Rusf10, this would probably have been disappeared before I noticed, also because I hadn't been notified to argue on behalf of its retention.Nishidani (talk) 19:18, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * While E.M. Gregory didn't break any rules by not notifying you, it is bad form to create an AfD without notifying the page creator (especially when it is such a contentious issue). I always notify when I create an AfD.--Rusf10 (talk) 19:28, 16 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete. With the exception of the last two sources (one of which is a rather primary travel warning) none of the sources discuss the topic. What we do have is multiple individual incidents strung together - in which an Israeli (or Palestinian pre 48) Jew threw a stone. As such, connection of the strung together incidents to a topic is WP:OR. Settler violence is already covered in Israeli settler violence. I suspect Haredi violence may be notable standalone. Ethiopian-Israeli (essentially once incident) probably not. All the various sub sets are not discussed jointly in RS, and arise/occur in completely different circumstances. As such we fail GNG since the sources do not address the topic (of Jewish Israeli stone throwing).Icewhiz (talk) 19:25, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Are you sure "none of the sources discuss the topic"? For example, ref #20, to cite just one example, specifically addresses the entirety of issue, including Ethiopian Jews, Haredi Jews, and settler Jews: «And let’s not fool ourselves - Jews are no strangers to rock-throwing. Recent examples of Israelis using stones as weapons against Palestinians are numerous, especially, but not exclusively in Jerusalem and the West Bank. Residents of East Jerusalem have thrown stones at the neighboring Palestinian refugee camp, Shuafat. Just last January, settlers threw stones at an American convoy containing diplomats who came to examine complaints that settlers destroyed Palestinian-owned olive groves. And Palestinian complaints of stone-throwing and firebombing as harassment methods happens again and again. And then there is the frequent use of stone-throwing in situations utterly unrelated to the Palestinian conflict. Protesting crowds of ultra-Orthodox Jews have thrown stones while decrying everything from army recruitment, to archaeological digs, to Shabbat desecration, to members of their community being arrested for tax evasion. Stones have also been hurled at the cars of secular and national religious women deemed to be inappropriately dressed in ultra-Orthodox neighborhoods. And can we really forget so quickly that it was just last April, that angry Ethiopian youth stood in the streets hurling stones, bottles, and firebombs at storefronts and police in the heart of Tel Aviv. » . Clearly this is an issue which Israelis in Israel look at as a whole, and is not a series of unrelated news events, as you propose. XavierItzm (talk) 20:56, 16 May 2018 (UTC)


 * I admit I missed 20. However it is op-edish and in the context of legislation enacted to counter Arab stone throwing. I contend that Jewish Israeli are not used as a set, widely. Stone throwing in Israel might.Icewhiz (talk) 21:09, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * An opinion piece by a non-notable writer that ran in a low-circulation newspaper at one edge of the Israeli political spectrum is not representative of how "Israelis in Israel look at" anything. You are sort of proving the point that sources are just not out there for this as a subject.  Haredi stone throwing,  Israeli settler violence, and Palestinian stone throwing, now, those  are coherent topics.  E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:21, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Once more, Icewhiz, I must remind you what all RS state and everyone bar yourself apparently knows here, the West Bank (and Jerusalem in international law for that matter) is not in Israel, and therefore suggesting as a reformulation 'Stone Throwing in Israel' for material that deals with events technically beyond Israel's recognized sovereignty is a non-sequitur, or non-starter.Nishidani (talk) 21:33, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * An I used Jewish Israeli because they do the stone throwing unlike Palestinian Israelis who are 20% of Israelis and not know for hurling strones at West Bank Palestinians.Nishidani (talk) 22:03, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * EM Gregory you are used double standards, just as you write a stub on (tragic as it was) a barely notable inciodent (several unarmed Palestinians are shot every week: we do not memorialize each case) Ohana as victim of Palestinian stone throwing while pressing to delete an general article on similar behaviour from the other ethnicity. And here, while you used Arutz Sheva a notorious settler POV pushing rag to source the Ohana article, you now say Haaretz, the best internatioonally acknowledged source of Israeli liberal Zionis opinion is a neglibible source.Nishidani (talk) 21:33, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Do not twist my words. (I described Kaplan Sommer as a nonnotable writer and described Haaretz accurately; it is popular internationally, not among Israelis. Arutz Shava, which has a large circulation in Israel, is reliable on a fact  about the establishment and motivation of a West Bank settlement.) I have argued consistently for the material on settler stone throwing to be redirected to Israeli settler violence.  And that Haredi stone belongs in an article on Haredi political violence,  or  a similar title.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:02, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Wrong Arutz Sheva has been adjudicated at the RSN as not reliable on facts. A large circulation never translates into RS, as you must know. Were that true, English tabloids, party papers in China, etc.etc.etc. would automatically qualify. Arutz Sheva, do you read it? peddles conspiracy theories about every one from Obama to Palestinians and Arabs and employs a known plagiarist, Giulio Meotti.Nishidani (talk) 19:45, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Nishidani - we already have an Israeli settler violence which covers the West Bank. I do not see why we would separate "Jewish Israeli" as a separate religion from Druze, Christian, Muslim - or groups such as illegal migrants - in a an article on stone throwing in Israel. Such a division - is not borne out by the sources (even the Haaretz source mentioned above - was covering how new legislation (which would not be in the West Bank, where this would not be in effect) - would affect both Jews and Arabs).Icewhiz (talk) 14:45, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Double standards again. We have dozens of articles already on Palestinian political violence, but EM Gregory wanted to write an article on Palestinian stone-throwing. Now you say that a corresponding article to the latter, Jewish Israeli stone throwing, is unnecessary because we already have Israeli settler violence. So what is being done here by editors is to keep  creating numerous new pages on Palestinian violence, while deleting any expansion, per NPOV, of the parallel phenomenon from the other community. If you want specifics on a sub-topic, specifically, Palestinian stone throwing, you can't get hysterical over the creation of an analogous page on Jewish Israeli stone throwing, which is just as common. It's a blatant manipulation of Wikipedia to create a glaring imbalance in coverage and the objections are all subjective pettifoggery. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.Nishidani (talk) 10:43, 18 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep per NPOV, and the obvious double standard exemplified by this AfD. --NSH001 (talk) 11:50, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep per Malik Shabazz and NSH001.  nableezy  - 15:40, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete per Icewhiz - this seems to be a list of unrelated events and incidents, synthetically collated by the article creator, but lacking any real source treating this as a notable topic in itself. Firkin Flying Fox (talk) 18:07, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep per Malik Shabazz and NSH001. Oh boy, this is the Israeli apartheid-article wars all over again  (Recall ...those who made, and wanted to keep  the French apartheid, and any other nations apartheid article.....while at the very same time fighting tooth and nail to delete the Israeli apartheid article...) (Hmmm....I guess renaming is the next step, eh?) Huldra (talk) 23:59, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment - the nomination is defective. The nomination alleges that «The incidents listed in the article have nothing in common, certainly not a common topic. Moreover they are sourced to news reports merely show that stones were thrown».  This is incorrect.  The article is not based on "news reports."  Currently the article cites the following nine books: 1. Book: Bethell, Nicholas (1979). The Palestine Triangle. 2. Book: Nachman Ben-Yehuda, Theocratic Democracy: The Social Construction of Religious and Secular Extremism 3. Book: Samuel C. Heilman, Defenders of the Faith: Inside Ultra-Orthodox Jewry 4. Book: W. Gordon Lawrence, Tongued with Fire: Groups in Experience 5. Book:Roger Friedland; Richard Hecht (2000). To Rule Jerusalem. 6. Book: Jonathan Boyarin, Palestine and Jewish History: Criticism at the Borders of Ethnography 7. Book:  Nora L. Rubel, Doubting the Devout: The Ultra-Orthodox in the Jewish American Imagination 8. Book: Lev Luis Grinberg, Politics and Violence in Israel/Palestine: Democracy Versus Military Rule 9. Book: Adam LeBor, City of Oranges: Arabs and Jews in Jaffa Furthermore, the article cites the following government, non-governmental organization books, and scholarly articles, which are not news: 1. Government: U.S. Govm't Printing Office, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2009 2. NGO: Human Rights Watch, Center of the Storm: A Case Study of Human Rights Abuses in Hebron District 3. Scholarly Journal: Journal of Israeli History: Politics, Society, Culture, Volume 24, Issue 1, 2005; Benny Morris, The Historiography of Deir Yassin There are, in addition, 27 citations from news sources.  News sources should not be disparaged.  News sources are routinely cited on Wikipedia articles.  The sources on this article come from unquestionable WP:RS, such as the Jewish Telegraphic Agency, The Los Angeles Times, the Jerusalem Post, Haaretz, the Times of Israel, etc. In conclusion, we have a defective nomination which does not withstand an examination of the actual sources. XavierItzm (talk) 00:36, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Hmm the Palestinian one is better, but I'm sure this can be developed with the help of all editors involved. If I didn't have to walk someone's dog tonight I'd write up Stone throwing in the Aeneid, starting with that wonderful epic simile in Book 1 where Neptune calms the waves after that storm, and ending with Turnus being unable to hurl the mighty rock at Aeneas. I'm oping that all of you will help find other examples. And maybe then we can move on to the Iliad? Drmies (talk) 00:46, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment.Boy! is that refreshingly thoughtful! I'm going to get my mental rocks off today, a busy one off-line taking up your hint about stones in classical literature (I've done some work on the Biblical stuff, but no time to add it here, and had I done so, it would have been removed as WP:OR). So my day begins, as I make my way henceforth into the heart of Rome, with Polyphemus hurling half a cliff Odysseus's way:
 * ὣς ἐφάμην, ὁ δ᾽ ἔπειτα χολώσατο κηρόθι μᾶλλον,
 * ἧκε δ᾽ ἀπορρήξας κορυφὴν ὄρεος μεγάλοιο,
 * κὰδ δ᾽ ἔβαλε προπάροιθε νεὸς κυανοπρῴροιο
 * τυτθόν, ἐδεύησεν δ᾽ οἰήιον ἄκρον ἱκέσθαι, . .
 * If one looks at the Palestinian article, which is constantly being gutted after I tried to built it up into a comprehensive overview from the POV stub it began as, with stuff like this removed, though the eraser has now created at least 2 articles (Killing of Esther Ohana and Death of Binyamin Meisner) one will observe that the editor proposing deletion here is engaged in building his case against Palestinians for throwing stones at Jewish Israelis, while systematically contesting articles which document the obverse. Blatant POV pushing in the interests of WP:Systemic bias. It would be easy to mimic this POV pushing by writing a stub like the Ohana one on Edmond Ghanem, to blue link it to this article, but one exercises restraint, with the result that the information re the latter, a perfect instance of murdering a Palestinian by dropping a rock on his head, is suppressed from this article. That's the way these articles are consistently gamed.  Nishidani (talk) 09:22, 19 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep – The topic has received significant coverage from numerous independent, reliable sources which clearly passes WP:GNG.


 * As per Malik Shabazz, Nishidani and NSH001, I agree with the apparent editorial hypocrisy/double standard being applied here as this appears to be a politically-motivated nomination in attempt to present a one-sided view of these incidents against NPOV. Tanbircdq (talk)


 * Delete per Drmies. w umbolo   ^^^  15:04, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep: notability of the topic for a stand-alone artcle has been sufficiently demonstrated. K.e.coffman (talk) 15:24, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note that Not all phenomena in the Israeli Palestinian conflict can be equated. Take the example of Edmond Ghanem, brought above as an instance of "Jewish Israeli stone throwing.'' However, According to the Observer, Edmond Ghanem died when a "block of concrete," that "had been used to weigh down the look-out tent" of a rooftop Israeli Army observation post "tipped over by accident" and fell on him.   Sources do exist to support   Haredi stone-throwing  and Israeli settler violence, as topics, but Sources do not link these two dissimilar phenomena into a "Jewish Israeli" phenomenon.  There is no WP:SIGCOV on the subject of Jewish Israeli stone throwing.     This page is  WP:SYNTH and violates WP:NOTADVOCATE.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:05, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * "If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, that will not hearken to the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and though they chasten him, will not hearken unto them; then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; and they shall say unto the elders of his city: 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he doth not hearken to our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.' And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die; so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee; and all Israel shall hear, and fear." So I guess Moses was just talking shit before he led the Israelites to the Land of Israel? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:06, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * And I suppose the authors of the New Testament made up the story about Jesus saving a woman from being stoned by "the scribes and the Pharisees" (i.e., the founders of Rabbinic Judaism), right? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:06, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment demonstrates that this article is a COATRACK on which editors hang a motley array of topics. Stoning is a separate topic. (We do not, of course, include the Stoning of the Devil in Palestinian stone-throwing although, of course, numbers of Palestinians participate every year.) E.M.Gregory (talk) 09:58, 22 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:08, 22 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.