Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jigme (Kagyu lama)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep; effectively withdrawn by nominator. BD2412 T 00:41, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Jigme (Kagyu lama)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:BIO. No effective referencing. All refs seems to be his.  scope_creep Talk  08:01, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:13, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Buddhism-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 08:13, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It shouldn't be a problem finding secondary sources on Jigme Rinpoche. He's a significant influence to the Karma Kagyu lineage. I'll appreciate any and all help on this. Thanks! Badabara (talk) 15:52, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately, I did my a bit of my own research to be sure and I would tend to agree with notion to delete the page. Although in real life he is a significant teacher in the Karma Kagyu lineage, by basic Wikipedia criteria he is not a notable person. He greatest notoriety is by association to the 16th Karmapa, which Wikipedia specifically calls out as not warranting an individual their own page--I wish I could disagree (he is also the brother of another significant lama, the 14th Sharmapa and was a witness to the Karmapa Controversy. He is also an author of several Buddhist books--is that significant?). However, much of this page could be moved onto the Karma Kagyu page under a new section--something to the effect of "Current lineage holders". I would be happy to help make that happen. A Wikipedia location for this information will be a needed for reference for coming additions to the 16th Karmapa and Karmapa Controversy pages. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall (talk) 18:44, 14 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi Anotherpinkfloydinthewall wouldn't your idea require finding all pages of high lamas/rinpoches from all Tibetan Buddhist schools, deleting their respective pages, and adding them to various lineage pages? Quite a task. The topic at hand is "effective referencing".Badabara (talk) 02:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Let’s leave this page alone for the time being and create a “Current lineage masters” on the Karma Kagyu page. When both exist we can see what’s most appropriate (as people fill out this page). We don’t have significant meat on many members of the lineage, but the fact of the matter is that a lineage IS the people—they aren’t two distinct entities. That information absolutely needs a place to live. Anotherpinkfloydinthewall (talk) 12:59, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * There appear to be enough secondary sources to keep the page on Wikipedia--Thehittite (talk) 14:37, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi scope_creep and Thehittite I edited the page to include a number of secondary sources. Badabara (talk) 14:41, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * It seems that the criteria for an individual's page has been reasonably met here. It feels like it would add confusion to establish it as simply an adjunct to the 16th Karmapa or Karmapa controversy areas. [[User:spaceis411|spaceis411

]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Spaceis411 (talk • contribs) 22:03, 16 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment We will examine the reference in detail.   scope_creep Talk  09:07, 17 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Now that these additional sources have been added, this page seems fine to me on its own. I wouldn't support deleting it at this stage.Mekinna1 (talk) 14:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Keep: I think the new sources make this article squeak past WP:GNG line.  // Timothy ::  talk  18:51, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Stifle (talk) 11:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC) Thanks everyone for your comments. I've made multiple edits since the nomination for deletion, adding secondary sources. Please review, and hopefully we can get to consensus quickly. Badabara (talk) 18:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * I should also add that other editors have added sources as well. Badabara (talk) 20:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)
 * This article appears to have enough Independent of Subject references.Thehittite (talk) 16:35, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Still looks sufficient to me. I think he is a notable person in the Buddhist world. I may have a couple of new references to add in the near future, trying to locate. Mekinna1 (talk) 19:40, 31 August 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment The reason it has been open for two weeks is because an admin has looked at the article and found it wanting. Most of the references are self-published. The ones that have been added are profile pages, they aren't under editorial control or peer reviewed and are probably invalid per WP:NOT. There is no real secondary sources, that are independent, in-depth and reliable. The only reason I didn't comment up until today as I saw an article in The Times about Akong Rinpoche and thought their might be some link to it here, but not found anything. There is a good para in one book, but its not-independent. It don't believe at this time, that Jigme Rinpoche is notable. It doesn't satisfy WP:BLPSOURCES   scope_creep Talk  08:42, 1 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I respectfully disagree. If you look at the significant sources, they are not profile pages. The following books are not self-published, and are independent of the subject (books on the history of Buddhism, aside from "Heart Advice" which is Buddhist teachings), and reliable:
 * Rinpoche, Gendun (2010). Heart Advice from a Mahamudra Master. Norbu Verlag
 * Douglas, Nik (1976). Karmapa: The Black Hat Lama of Tibet. Luzac; First Edition edition (1976). ISBN 0718901878.
 * Bausch, Gerd, "Radiant Compassion, The Life of the 16th Gyalway Karmapa, Volume 1." 2018 pp. 97-99
 * The following articles are not self-published, and are independent, and reliable:
 * Valentine, Glen (16 January 2018). Buddhist World. Scientific e-Resources, 2018. p. 271. ISBN 978-1839473623.
 * Campergue, Cecile (November 23, 2015). "Gifts and the Selfless Work Ethic in Tibetan Buddhist Centres in France". Religion Compass. 9 (11): 443–461.


 * Jigme Rinpoche was sent to Europe by the 16th Karmapa to build Buddhism. Though he may not have been controversial and loud, such as Chögyam Trungpa (he's a monk after all and kept his vows), he probably did more to preserve and carry on the work, and didn't go down in flames. His European seat is still intact. The number of Stupas and retreat centers and city centers that have been build under his guidance is quite large. I think this humble man deserves a page to be developed - it's just a stub page and will require more work. My 2 cents Badabara (talk) 15:17, 1 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep: Two interwikis, now indicated, author of several books, spiritual director of Dhagpo Kagyu Ling in France. --Rédacteur Tibet (talk) 10:57, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Author of several books with no book reviews, making them essentially non-notable. No real coverage.   scope_creep Talk  11:33, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Is there no mention in the French press?   scope_creep Talk  12:27, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * He is described in at least 2 books of major authors, one by fr:Frédéric Lenoir (with Robert Le Gall : Le Moine et le Lama, (2000)), the other by fr:Michaël de Saint-Cheron (La condition humaine et le temps; dialogues avec Élisabeth Badinter, Jacques Attali, François Gros, Rigmé Rinpoché; éd. Dervy; 26 mars 2001; (ISBN 2844540783 et 978-2844540782)).--Rédacteur Tibet (talk) 12:53, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * The French connection does yield some results. In a quick search found this:
 * https://www.sudouest.fr/2010/07/28/c-est-un-enfant-du-tibet-148372-1980.php
 * http://www.buddhachannel.tv/portail/spip.php?article18970
 * Also:
 * https://www.fayard.fr/documents-temoignages/le-moine-et-le-lama-9782213607108
 * http://www.rabseleditions.fr/?authorbook=lama-jigme-rinpoche
 * https://www.tibetsaveandcare.org/?q=en
 * https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lama_Puntso
 * http://www.ktl-aixmarseille.fr/?page=maitres&text=jigme
 * Anotherpinkfloydinthewall (talk) 13:19, 2 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Anotherpinkfloydinthewall (talk) 13:19, 2 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment They are a bit more tasty, from the French Connection. Can somebody update the article with these reviews and we may be able call it per WP:HEY. There should be a lot more available.   scope_creep Talk  15:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Thank you Anotherpinkfloydinthewall and User:scope_creep, I have added some information based on these new French sources. I think this paints a clearer picture of his activity and accomplishments. Mekinna1 (talk) 17:14, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks Mekinna1. I agree. The references added contain even more. --Rédacteur Tibet (talk) 17:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you everyone for your edits and input! Badabara (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Relisting one more time to see if work done on the article yields a broader consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, BD2412  T 00:11, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep per WP:BASIC. Here are my WP:THREE:, , and . AleatoryPonderings (talk) 03:03, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep. Seems like a WP:HEY has been attempted, and definitely looks good IMO. Also, acknowledging the above links from . I have a somewhat related question -- I see that Lama Jigme Rinpoche redirects to this page. Shouldn't it be the other way around? My vote as a part of this AfD process is to swap the content. The content on this page needs to be housed at Lama Jigme Rinpoche and this article i.e. Jigme (Kagyu lama) can redirect there as needed. Ktin (talk) 05:02, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Hi Ktin, I agree and brought up the same question on the talk page. He is referred to as Lama Jigme Rinpoche in press, articles and books.Badabara (talk) 18:48, 8 September 2020 (UTC)
 * , I think I understand now. Perhaps Rinpoche is considered a honorific, and hence is not a part of the article title. That said, I do know of a few articles with a honorific in the title. But, I guess it is good to leave as-is based on that. Ktin (talk) 04:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Right. Though it seems there are many exceptions... check out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Rinpoches. I'm wondering if in some cases it's honorific AND recognizable name. For example Dalai Lama is Dalai Lama not Dalai. Lama is also honorific. In this particular case Jigme (Kagyu Lama) is less recognizable, and "Lama" is also honorific... So why not make an exception for Jigme Rinpoche for the sake of clarity? Make sense? Is there a guideline for this? Thanks Badabara (talk) 05:55, 9 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I don't know. I think it needs to be moved to the talk page of the article.   scope_creep Talk  14:26, 9 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment Note to closing Admin Article has been updated with new references and meets WP:HEY. It can now be closed for keep. Thanks.  scope_creep Talk  14:26, 9 September 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.