Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jill-Lyn Euto


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Black Kite 22:23, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Jill-Lyn Euto

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

This article appears to be about a fairly mundane murder case and presents as more of a memorial than an encyclopedic entry. JeffJ (talk) 04:04, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Article moved to Murder of Jill-Lyn Euto, to focus more on the event than the person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Msdny (talk • contribs) 14:40, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete per WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:VICTIM.


 * Delete Thank you, JeffJ, for pointing out WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:VICTIM, which make it clear that this fails notability. Jim Heaphy (talk) 05:38, 5 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep The article provides a reference to a notable unsolved murder case. This case received significant local and national media attention, including America's Most Wanted, as documented in the article. WP:VICTIM does provide some exceptions as "The historic significance is indicated by persistent coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources that devote significant attention to the individual's role". Matthew_Shepard is given as an example. Matthew Shepard's case received more attention than Jill Lyn-Euto, but both are still significant. In both cases, neither victim was particularly notable prior to their murders. I would assert that both articles should remain in Wikipedia. Msdny (talk) 04:21, 9 March 2010 (UTC)


 * You can't really just label the murder as notable as an argument, since that's the issue for discussion here. You also say "significant" attention. That's a weasel word for a good reason; How do you define "significant" for the purpose of this discussion? I wouldn't rely on America's Most Wanted as a yard stick for significant since after 1000 episodes, just about every unsolved murder has been covered. And coverage has not been "persistent", but rather the case was revisited after the mother's death or as a human interest piece, and only by local media. But back to "notable": What makes this murder any more notable than the 1000's of murders committed around the world every day? How many people are murdered in the US every day? Are you suggesting that each and every one have an article? Offer some additional sources from national media outlets and we'll re-examine the "significant coverage" claim. I did a Google search and could not find one profession news source with any information on the case. Note: The article is down to 3 references from 4 after I deleted a link to an unrelated video about a local diner. --JeffJ (talk) 05:40, 9 March 2010 (UTC)


 * You compare Jill-Lyn Euto to Matthew Shepard. From the article: "Shepard's murder brought national and international attention to the issue of hate crime legislation at the state and federal levels." What is the comparable aspect of the Euto case? What issue received national and internation attention because of Euto's death? What changes to state and federal legislation were influenced by Euto's death? And while the Euto article cites 3 references, the Shepard article cites 51, with sources such as the Denver Post, LA Times, ABC News, New York Times, CNN, Time Magazine, National Public Radio, The Associated Press, and the Washington Post. That's significant coverage!--JeffJ (talk) 05:47, 9 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Your statement that "just about every unsolved murder has been covered by America's Most Wanted" is inaccurate. In 2001 alone, (the year that Jill was murdered), there were 4,505 unsolved homicide cases according to FBI Crime Statistics. Using the Advanced Search Tool on AMW's site shows that AMW has a total of just 145 homicide cases profiled in New York for all the years they've profiled these cases. The truth is that America's Most Wanted has only profiled a tiny fraction of unsolved murder cases. In Jill's case, they've known what I continue to know, which is that this is a notable unsolved murder case that had a major impact on a local community and has gained national attention for years after the event. I've already agreed with you that the Shephard case is more significant, but I don't think it's a fair argument that a less notable case should be excluded just because it doesn't compare in scope. Presumably there are any number of less "significant", yet still notable articles for similar reasons on the subject. I also do agree with you that additional references would improve the article. Msdny (talk) 22:25, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Google News does actually show about 20 "professional" news articles about Jill-Lyn Euto.  And Highbeam has 28. --GRuban (talk) 23:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * This is getting tiresome. The Highbeam link only brings back about 15 hits, not 28, and most of those were from one newspaper, and several of those only mentioned Euto as part of a list of unsolved murders and did not provide any actual information on the victim or the case. The Google link you provided just brought up all the Highbeam hits. So we're looking at about 15 hits with a majority from one local (i.e.: Not distributed nationally) newspaper, instead if the 48 you claim. You still fall far short of the Matthew Shepard example you cited. --JeffJ (talk) 03:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Alright, then I change my argument to: Should every one of the 4505 (for New York in 2001 alone) unsolved murders be given an article on Wikipedia? How many of those would qualify as notable according to your standard? Then what about all the other unsolved murders in the rest of the US? The world? Throughout history? How many thousands of articles would there be then that meet your standard? Thousands, tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? --JeffJ (talk) 23:06, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * How about the ones that get significant coverage in reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject? That's our Notability guideline. --GRuban (talk) 23:14, 10 March 2010 (UTC)


 * As I said above: The Highbeam link only brings back about 15 hits, not 28, and most of those were from one newspaper, and several of those only mentioned Euto as part of a list of unsolved murders and did not provide any actual information on the victim or the case. The Google link you provided just brought up all the Highbeam hits. So we're looking at about 15 hits with a majority from one local (i.e.: Not distributed nationally) newspaper, instead if the 48 you claim. You still fall far short of the Matthew Shepard example you cited. --JeffJ (talk) 03:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree with GRuben. JeffJ - I think that you and I basically agree on the notability standard itself. We just debated on whether or not this article meets the standard. If the approximate 28 references that GRuban found are eventually added to this article, would you agree to keep this article? I don't know when I'll be able to add them, but I'll do what I can. I think this has been an educational discussion. Msdny (talk) 00:19, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * 28 sounds good, but if they're mostly from the same local paper and each article just rehashes the same old information (just mentions Euto without further detail), then it doesn't really lend to notability. Quantity does not equal quality. In smaller communities, an act of serious vandalism can warrant several articles and a mention in similar articles later. So it's not surprising that an unsolved murder story would be trumped out at every opportunity. And we need to maintain a strict adherence to Notability guidelines or we're going to end up flooded with these memorial pages. I've been reading that New York City had 4500 unsolved murders one year, and the US has had about 200,000 unsolved murders since 1960. Are any of them less Notable than what really amounts to "Average person gets stabbed, police baffled"? Euto's story is a tragic one, but I'm sure that the other 200,000 murders were no less tragic for someone. And Euto has websites out there keeping her memory alive. So other than acting as a memorial, what is the global value of the information contained? Again we must refer to WP:VICTIM and the broader WP:N/CA. --JeffJ (talk) 03:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * This discussion is practically a verbatim rehash of the Eve Carson AfD discussion which ended as a no consensus and was ultimately kept. One outcome there was to rename the article to "Murder of ...." so that it was focused on the event rather than the person, which I think is a good idea. Again, the Euto event stands apart from the majority of unsolved murders for reasons I've already stated above. I see no value or reason to eradicate it. Hopefully some others can chime in. Msdny (talk) 05:39, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Nice try. The Eve Carson case received media coverage in North Carolina and Georgia as well as USA Today, and MTV. The University of North Carolina has also set up a scholarship in her honour. --JeffJ (talk) 07:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I haven't really seen any statement that makes a compelling case that "the Euto event stands apart from the majority of unsolved murders" as you put it. Just what makes it stand out? Euto was just an average person who was fatally stabbed. That's it. No national attention, no impact on society, no different than the thousands of other fatal stabbings (or other violent murders) that occur each year. Euto's life and death in the article can be summed up as:


 * 18-year-old Jill-Lyn Euto (March 20, 1982 – January 28, 2001), from Syracuse, New York was stabbed to death Sunday January 28, 2001 between noon and 3 pm. To date, police have not publicly identified any suspects. No locks were broken, no money was taken. The murder weapon was one of Euto's kitchen knives.


 * Again, that's it. The rest of the article is not much more than filler (see also WP:MASK). How is this notable? How is this of global interest? How does this "stand apart from the majority of unsolved murders"? Other than America's Most Wanted, show me any other evidence of national attention. I certainly doubt that it "has gained national attention for years after the event" as you claim. --JeffJ (talk) 06:10, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * And just to be clear, the two newspapers cited are the Syracuse Post Standard, a local paper with a circulation of only 110,000 (compared to mainstream papers as the Washington Post at 650,000 or the New York Times at 1,000,000+), and the Syracuse New Times, a local weekly alternative newspaper with a readership of less that 46,000 (based on the number of copies printed). Not exactly national attention. --JeffJ (talk) 06:33, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * And since no one seems to be reading WP:VICTIM here is the criteria:


 * "A victim of a high-profile crime does not automatically qualify as being notable enough to have a stand-alone article solely based on his or her status as a victim. Notability with regards to this is normally defined as satisfying some other aspect of the notability of persons guideline that does not relate to the crime in question.


 * As such, a victim of a crime should normally only be the subject of an article where an article that satisfied notability criteria existed, or could have properly been created prior to the crime's commission. Thus, attempts at inclusion prompted by appearance in the press should not be excluded if notability can be otherwise asserted. Also, consistent with WP:BLP1E, articles on persons primarily known as victims may be appropriate for persons with a large role within well-documented historic events. The historic significance is indicated by persistent coverage of the event in reliable secondary sources that devote significant attention to the individual's role (for example, Matthew Shepard)." --JeffJ (talk) 07:38, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Ok JeffJ.. I'm going to rough out what I know for you. All of these details can be found in numerous sources that you can research on your own (and help add to the article if you'd like to contribute. You seem to know your way around WP).


 * Out those 200,000 Unsolved Murder Cases in the US since 1960, this case was chosen by America's Most Wanted as one of only 500 total profiled homicide cases they have online.
 * What is AMW's criteria for selection?
 * The event received intense local and national media attention after the event for some time in 2001
 * Intense? National? I've seen no evidence of that.
 * There was a billboard about the case for a long time after the event
 * The billboard was created by the family because they had the resources to do so. Does not increase Notability.
 * The case still maintains a high profile on several websites dedicated to unsolved murders. Some of these sites only focus on a few high profile cases. []
 * These are not mainstream news sources, but private interest websites.
 * Jill is the subject a song written by an artist with some degree of national popularity
 * "Some degree of national popularity"? Did the song receive radio play? Make the charts?
 * There exists a substantial award for information about the case
 * So?
 * There are up to 28 newspaper articles on the event over a span of 7-8 years. Some may not be fully relevant.
 * "Some may not be fully relevant." Then why mention them or add them to your count?
 * The event is also notable due to extraordinary efforts of Euto's mother
 * That doesn't add to Notability.
 * Euto's mother appeared on the Montel Williams Show and Sally Jessie Raphael
 * Both shows are considered tabloid and not mainstream as is required for Notability.
 * With respect, Jeff, you're making up that "not mainstream" criterion. They're nationally aired television programs, it's hard to get more mainstream than that. Each show has a large production staff, that choose whom they want to make shows about, fine for establishing Notability. --GRuban (talk) 19:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * First, look at the Wikipedia entries for each show; They're described as Tabloid talk shows (I seem to recall Montel conducting psychic readings with Silvia Browne, and other junk like that). Then head over to WP:SOURCES and read about mainstream/reliable sources. Then come back and apologize for accusing me of making stuff up. --JeffJ (talk) 21:56, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Ah, I think I see. You're saying they're sensational, lowbrow, and not respected, and therefore not reliable sources. Then say so, don't say they're "not mainstream" - mainstream very much includes popular media, no matter how trashy: "the mainstream includes all popular culture, typically disseminated by mass media. The opposite of the mainstream are subcultures, countercultures, cult followings, and (in fiction) genre." --GRuban (talk) 14:57, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Gosh! Is that what I said? Well GRuban, if you can't dazzle me with brilliance, eh? Apology accepted. JeffJ (talk) 18:52, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * She established an annual vigil that lasted until 2007
 * It's nice that her mother kept her daughter's memory alive, but that does not meet Notability requirements.
 * She established a web site with factual information about the case
 * As above.
 * She was interviewed numerous times about the case by local radio, tv and newspapers up until her death in 2007
 * How many times is "numerous"? Where are these citations? And I notice that you specify "local".
 * She was involved in a lawsuit against the building owner which sought to place some liabilities on landlords for providing adequate security. This is a legal case that could have reaching impact to other cases (which could be more relevant should this article be allowed to grow.)
 * If the murder has lead to changes in the law then you would likely have grounds for Notability. Is this the case? People in the U.S. sue each other regularly.--JeffJ (talk) 17:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Maybe there's more, but that's enough and I'm done with this silly debate. I don't know JeffJ.. you're a determined bugger. I sense you're trying to do good, but please be careful out there. I'm not related to Euto, but you'll probably be dealing with the parents and families of murder victims if you continue to pursue this with other similar articles. Characterizations like "mundane insignificant murders" and "just an average person who was stabbed" to make points is really harmful and won't win friends in these circles. Msdny (talk) 08:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not trying to diminish the tragedy of Euto's murder and as a father I'd do everything I could to keep my child's memory alive and try to bring the killer to justice. But this is an encyclopedia and there are plenty of websites, MySpace, Facebook, blogs, etc. that are better suited to a memorial. It's unfortunate to have to use expressions like "fairly mundane murder" (I never said "mundane insignificant murders" as you claim) and "average person who was stabbed" (I never said "just" as you claim - Don't try to besmirch my intentions by misquoting me), but there really needed to be a balance for all the hyperbole that I think was more damaging; If you have to exaggerate (or alter quotations) to make a point, it really damages credibility. Now, if you'll turn your attention to your entry above, I'll try to address your arguments individually. --JeffJ (talk) 17:49, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep. Just noticed I didn't formally make a bolded statement. --GRuban (talk) 19:11, 11 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 23:55, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. Appearances on multiple TV shows indicate notability beyond the regular murder victim.-- Pink Bull  16:07, 12 March 2010 (UTC)


 * From WP:NTEMP:


 * Notability is not temporary: a topic needs to have had sufficient coverage in reliable sources to meet the general notability guideline, but it does not need to have ongoing coverage. However, Wikipedia is not a news source: it takes more than just a short burst of news reports about a single event or topic to constitute sufficient evidence of notability – particularly for living individuals known for one event (WP:BLP1E). For example, routine news coverage such as announcements, sports coverage, and tabloid journalism is not a sufficient basis for a topic to have its own standalone article. The Wikimedia project Wikinews covers topics of present news coverage. For guidelines on whether an event is notable, see Wikipedia: Notability (events). JeffJ (talk) 21:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * America's Most Wanted isn't a tabloid; the fact that less respected talk shows also covered the murder certainly doesn't reduce its notability. Anyway, note earlier in this discussion "coverage has not been persistent" was cited as a reason to delete; this guideline's primary purpose is to say that coverage doesn't need to be persistent. --GRuban (talk) 21:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
 * I like the way you quote and ignore the issue I emphasized ("...tabloid journalism is not a sufficient basis...") all in the same breath. And you are ignoring the sentence that follows in the policy: "However, Wikipedia is not a news source..." and so on. You really need to look over all the policies I've quoted and stop trying to pick at each individual argument. There is a very clear guideline in place for notability here if you'll just take the time to educate yourself. And you might want to brush up on WP:OWNERSHIP -- JeffJ (talk) 22:05, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Cirt (talk) 12:39, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Keep. Holy tldr! For anyone whose eyes glazed over and actually got down this far click on the Google New link to see the sources readily available. Working on murder victim articles is often unpleasant but there is a good article possible here and high profile television show appearances means it easily meets GNG. America's Most Wanted is a national US show aired in primetime, is this case the night before the 2001 Superbowl. Here's a cover story interview from 2001. The Sally Jesse Rafael Show can be cited to taped September 2001 (sadly familiar date) and aired in February of 2002. The Montel Williams Show Guest: World Renown Physic. Sylvia Browne tries to assist family, Date: 6/19/02. The family has also held several fundraisers for the reward fund which seem to have gotten some coverage. I think this case became noted again when the mother passed, she apparently kept the case alive up until her death.. Here's a court case. There are numerous more local news articles etc etc but the subject meets GNG one way or another. -- Banj e  b oi   16:32, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Too bad you didn't read it. Your arguments have already been addressed. --JeffJ (talk) 20:08, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * I'm not arguing, I'm simply stating my opinion after looking at the possible sources that this particular case, IMHO, indeed meets GNG. It may also meet other notability guidelines but if I had to do rewrite I'm confident between the primary and independent sources there is enough here. You and I might have to agree to disagree on this one but my opinion remains just that, my opinion.  -- Banj e  b oi   20:28, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * "Argument", as in: "a discussion in which reasons are advanced for and against some proposition or proposal". --JeffJ (talk) 20:43, 13 March 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep Ample coverage for it to meet the general notability guidelines. It was covered on several notable shows, which have millions of viewers.    D r e a m Focus  15:09, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. Every unsolved murder gets a lot of media coverage, but that does not mean Wikipedia needs an article on every unsolved murder. The GNG does not say that extensive media coverage is an entry ticket: it says that something with significant coverage is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria, but it goes on to say:
 * "'Presumed' means that significant coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, that a subject is suitable for inclusion. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not appropriate for a standalone article. For example, such an article may violate what Wikipedia is not."
 * And WP:NOT includes WP:NOTNEWS: "Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events... most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion." This murder is a tragic case, like any murder, but I see no enduring notability. JohnCD (talk) 09:54, 20 March 2010 (UTC)


 * In general i agree, however through mainly the efforts of her mother, a foundation was formed, and numerous appearances on national television brought about more coverage. A typical murder case remains locally focussed and may or may not quickly dissipate, this one did not. It has sustained interest for many years. -- Banj e  b oi   23:55, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep. Per Banjeboi and Dream.--Epeefleche (talk) 09:07, 21 March 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.