Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jill Neimark


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was SPEEDY CLOSE per probable sock puppet nom. The nom has no other contribs other than tagging the article for AfD, and making the page. If anyone wants to reopen, go ahead. Kwsn (Ni!) 22:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Jill Neimark

 * - (View AfD) (View log)

This "article" is a self-promotional piece, created and is maintained by Jill Neimark -- the subject of the article -- in violation of the policy I'm looking at right above the box in which I'm currently typing:

"Wikipedia is not an advertising service. Promotional articles about yourself, your friends, your company or products, or articles created as part of a marketing or promotional campaign, will be deleted in accordance with our deletion policies."


 * Keep, I say. I don't see the problem - she's a published author with works translated into Multiple languages, and articles in the NY Times.  There are almost certainly authors with fewer writing credits that have pages for themselves.  In terms of sheer output, she bests JD Salinger... Matthewdkaufman 06:24, 23 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep for now, probably review later. Subject is making a good-faith effort to start a factual encyclopedia article.  The guideline quoted above says that promotional articles will be deleted; the autobiography guideline says they are "strongly discouraged" but "not strictly forbidden". — Demong talk 22:20, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, while I disagree with everything you guys have said -- Jill's entry is about as close to a good-faith effort to start a factual encyclopedia article as a Ford commercial is to present an objective evaluation of the vehicle; and if number of words in print were a rational way of evaluating an author's body of work, there are some writers of sleazy trash who have JD, Jill, and even Charles Dickens beat by a factor of 10 -- I'm giving in.

Now excuse me while I go off and write my own Wikipedia page: I've got more publications than Salinger, too, and if that's the standard, why shouldn't I cash in the way Jill has? And don't let me see any of you marking my page for deletion: I've got this whole conversation on tape.


 * Keep - I don't see how this violates the quoted policy. It's a simple article without any fluff. All claims are sourced. This nomination seems like a personal attack rather than good-faith. It's suspicious on multiple levels. Lara Love  T / C  04:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This AfD nomination was incomplete. It is listed now. DumbBOT 16:26, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

There are about a dozen substantial articles. Notability? One BOMC selection; 1 or 2 interviews in the NYT; one minor award. Perhaps together they make for weak notability. DGG 18:13, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep per discussion above. Well-referenced, NPOV.--SarekOfVulcan 16:38, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Speedy keep per above users. This article is well-referenced and has a neutral point of view. It may be stubby, but that's a reason for expansion, not deletion. Ten Pound Hammer  • (((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps))) 17:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak keep No, the article is not well-referenced: 1 is a very minor notice of her first novel on a web site; 2 talks only about her co-author, clearly the principle author, 3 & 4 are also about her coauthor, not her. 5 is a patient's support group, 6 is her one real published article, in Discover. 6 is the Autism Society of America's award to the Discover article, 7 is a blog, 8 is a patient support group. Nor are all claims sourced. The NYT articles are not sourced, though at least one can be; the translations are not sourced; the BOMC selection is not sourced; the poetry is not sourced; calling herself a co-author when the articles about the book don't mention her--that's sourcing all right, deceptive sourcing.


 * I am in the process of finding sources. I did some of this yesterday. I have gone just now, after reading the above comment "weak keep", and found references for reviews of my novel in the Los Angeles Times, Houston Chronicle, Chicago Tribune, and Washington Post, as well as a look at my and 4 other novels in The Southern Review. Should I list these? I can substitute that for EW online. Will someone kindly advise? 5 was published in a magazine called Spirituality & Health and reprinted on the website ImmuneSupport so I will use that better source instead, I have published many many dozens of articles but simply referenced this one on autism. Should I reference others? At some point I fear it becomes a bit self-inflating? I really need advice about how many articles to reference--. This autism cover story I picked because I literally received hundreds of letters about it and autism is a big issue at the moment. The articles about the new book do mention me. I chose to list JTF foundation's interview with Stephen Post because I think it reflects the work well. Please advise here but I am in the process of obtaining sources for the first time and I have some other deadlines so I haven't done it perfectly yet. This was just yesterday's work. I will keep working on this the rest of the week. Thanks for everybody's thoughts. I hope it is appropriate that I responded here and I would appreciate further advice from anyone wishing to give it. Thanks.* jenbooks13 19:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I had actually given up, decided that this wasn't worth wasting any more time on... and then I decided to write an article of my own -- not about myself, but about a third party who I think is more notable than I am (or, for that matter, than is the subject of the article I marked for deletion).

Since I've never written a Wikipedia article before, I looked for help, and I found myself on the "Wikipedia:Your first article" page, where there are four guidelines right up at the top; guess what the third one is?

"'Please don't create pages about yourself or your friends, pages that advertise, or personal essays.'"

To the "closing admin" for this discussion: Please either adjudicate in accordance with the guidelines for first articles, or arrange for that particular guideline to be stricken -- or at least modified. As it stands, it's neither ambiguous nor subject to interpretation: "Please don't" is as close to a law as one can have in an open community like Wikipedia, and should have the same force as "Thou shalt not" in a moral code.

If you adjudicate in favor of this article, then I will consider myself (as should everyone else on the Internet) licensed to write about myself, my family, my friends, and my pets -- and to advertise my own wares (indirectly and discreetly, of course).

Personally, I will still regard it as ethically questionable, but I am not the arbiter of what's legal or ethical on Wikipedia, and if this kind of behavior is adjudged to be acceptable, I'd be a fool not to take advantage of an opportunity like this. Japastor 21:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.