Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jim Donovan (musician)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.  MBisanz  talk 03:23, 21 December 2012 (UTC)

Jim Donovan (musician)

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Non-notable musician who fails WP:ENTERTAINER and WP:NMUSIC, as well as WP:42, WP:GNG, etc. Qworty (talk) 11:10, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Rusted Root. Donovan himself doesn't appear to qualify for WP:NMUSIC, but his former band, having released several albums on a major label that hit a national chart (though none of that is currently verified by reliable sources, which is a problem in itself), do. -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   13:25, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Rusted Root - Google News archives provided several results, a large portion of them are only workshops and references through Rusted Root. Additionally, it seems he is now better known as a teacher than a musician and this news article from 2011 supports it. SwisterTwister   talk  23:14, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:02, 29 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep Jim Donovan hasn't been a member of Rusted Root for several years, and merging his article with theirs makes no sense. I don't get why being known as a teacher would make a difference: Babatunde Olatunji, Sikiru Adepoju, Mickey Hart, Layne Redmond, Airto Moreira, Zakir Hussein, Cyro Baptista and many more drummers are known for their workshops. He is also a drum maker, and a columnist for Drum! Magazine. Before making a decision, I would urge you to look at his article as it was before Qworty's deletions. It can certainly use some citations for verifiability, but he is a notable musician, teacher, writer, etc. He has a new band, too: Sun King Warriors. Rosencomet (talk) 20:31, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Why don't you recuse yourself after admitting your connection to the man. The other musicians you mention are nothing more than WP:OTHERSTUFF.  You don't mention a single policy or guideline or give a single reason why this person might meet the official notability standards for a musician.  Your entire argument is WP:ILIKEIT.  You can't just keep supporting the inclusion of people simply because they once attended the Starwood Festival, of which you are one of the principle organizers.  That's not what Wikipedia is all about. Qworty (talk) 21:38, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Why don't you stop attacking the character of other editors? Why don't you argue the merits of your position instead of trying to defame those who disagree with you? I didn't bring up the Starwood Festival as a reason for anything: you did. I ask that editors look at the article pre-Qworty and judge on the subjects merits, and ignore the campaign of attacks Qworty is engaged in on me and any articles I have edited. You may also want to look at his activities with St. Francis University and the World Drumming Ensemble. Qworty's tactics of personal attacks are not what Wikipedia is all about. Rosencomet (talk) 02:04, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not attacking the editor's character. I'm addressing the sources.  By all means, look at the sources in this version, and look at the edit history, with the policy rationales  for why each source does not meet policy.  The WP:COI is indeed a secondary issue, but routinely comes up when relevant to an AfD.  I don't think you should be defending this article, since you wrote it and you know the man. Other, non-involved editors need to lend their eyes to it. Qworty (talk) 02:20, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 16:53, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

 
 * Comment At least two of the excised claims appear to be easily backed up with reliable sources and lay a foundation for independent notability. For example, this removal of a claim is very easily sourced via this. I'll take a closer look at some of the other removals, which are fairly dramatic. I absolutely agree that with a BLP unsourced claims should be removed, but I generally think it's a good idea to see if they can be cited before removal, and that one is very very easily cited. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  20:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep The current sourcing in the article supports Donovan being an award-winning musician as a solo artist, and Google News reveals an awful lot of coverage of his drum workshops. I don't think Donovan is the most noteworthy musician -- or even drummer -- in the universe, indeed he's far from it, but I agree with Rosencoment's questioning why we would redirect an article on someone with an award-winning solo career to the article on his former band, even if the former band is certainly more notable. ɠǀɳ̩ςεΝɡ  bomb  20:38, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Rusted Root. one or two references to a drum clinic on a boat - all other references refer to Rusted Root. Not really notable by himself, it would seem. Deathlibrarian (talk) 14:16, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * STRONG Delete When it's all said and done, the subject simply isn't notable. There also seems to be some POV and promotional issues. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉  01:56, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Jim Donovan is a relevant enough drummer and musician both solo and with his work in Rusted Root to keep up. Vittala (talk) 18:50, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Care to make an argument based on sourcing and/or policy? Or are you simply saying WP:ILIKEIT? Qworty (talk) 20:26, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Cheers, Ri l ey    00:05, 13 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete and redirect to Rusted Root not notable by himself. -- Phazakerley  (talk) 20:12, 14 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Meets the GNG with articles in the Pittsburgh City Paper, the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review, The Charleston Gazette, and more.  Th e S te ve   23:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Those sources are behind a paywall. Of what I can read, there doesn't seem to be much beyond "Jim Donovan used to play in Rusted Root". Can you list the other sources? -- Ritchie333 (talk)  (cont)   10:09, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, of course that's what they start with. He's most famous for being in Rusted Root for 15 years.  However, they all go on to say "and now he's doing this..."  I won't list all the sources, as there are over 50, and lots of them are passing mentions.  Here are a few about Jim Donovan and not Rusted Root.

Th e S te ve  21:23, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Syracuse New Times: But over a career spanning more than 20 years, Jim Donovan has proved himself as one of the foremost drum circle experts in the country.
 * Percussionist Donovan brings beat to people:His current band -- Drum the Ecstatic International -- has another vision of music, one that unfolds at a leisurely pace and is performed on a much smaller scale.
 * Benefits of drumming go beyond music, Jim Donovan says:Donovan has been conducting drumming workshops and clinics for 10 years. In 2008, he was named Drum Circle Facilitator of the Year by the readers of Drum! magazine.
 * FEDERAL GRANTS FOR ARTS COUNCIL:The project will feature nationally known artists including: spoken-word performers Mayhem Poets, steel drummer and calypso performer Andy Narell, and Jim Donovan and Drum the Ecstatic.
 * Passing mentions, all of them. None of this is the significant coverage that is required for notability, as encapsulated in WP:42. Qworty (talk) 21:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Haha really?! Two headlines (listed on the links) in reliable sources mentioning his name, and you call them passing mentions?  If the subject is in the headline, it isn't, by definition, a passing mention.  Is this something personal for you? Because it seems as though you didn't bother to even click on the links...  Th e S te ve   05:41, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep, clearly passes WP:GNG for his activity independent of the band. "POV and promotional issues" are no argument for deletion. - filelake shoe  &#xF0F6;   14:27, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep based on the multiple, independent, substantial published sources noted by The Steve. Those without HighBeam access might not be able to see the stuff, but it's surely sufficient for our purposes. Carrite (talk) 20:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.