Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joan Downes


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / {talk} 10:16, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Joan Downes

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 * Delete. Other than the unusual circumstances of her death, there is no individual notability demonstrated for this person. Reference to Lady Downes is more appropriate within the context of the article about her husband. WWGB (talk) 11:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. We know so much about her that we've forgotten to mention when she was born, her maiden name, and all the details of her early life, her schooling and her brilliant career (we go straight from the lede to "Death" !!).  If those details are available, they should be inserted and it can be reassessed.  If they're not, which is probably why they're not there already, then this just proves she's not notable enough for anyone to have ever written anything about her.  Sorry for the sarcasm, but really, this article must be a bit of a joke.  --  JackofOz (talk) 12:52, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep: (Caveat: I am the creator of the page). I would love to know when and where she was born, etc., but that info doesn't seem to be out there, yet, anyway; Lord knows I looked. I came across an email address for the Downes' daughter, Boudicca Downes, but, even if it's valid, I don't think now would be a good time to email her for biodata on her mom. Lady Downes seemed, as a ballet dancer and choreographer, to fulfill WP:NOTABILITY requirements. (The facts of her life and death are most decidedly not a joke.) I am not particularly attached to the page. If it is deleted please transfer any salient info to Edward Downes' page. Thanks. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 13:14, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * But surely the absence of any biographical material on her means that nobody has ever regarded her highly enough to bother doing any research. The mere fact that she was a dancer, choreographer and TV producer, does not mean she was a notable dancer, choreographer and TV producer.  Not all people who have ever danced for the Royal Ballet are personally notable.  She married a man who was knighted, so she became Lady Downes.  So what?  Had she married Joe Bloggs the garbage inspector, would we be remotely considering her as notable enough for her own article?  And that's the test: regardless of whom a person marries, they have to be notable in their own right to warrant an article.  The only exceptions to this would be First Ladies, Royal consorts etc., who are automatically Wiki-notable regardless of their actual public profile.  Lady Downes was not in this category.  --  JackofOz (talk) 13:23, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment From what I can find in a gsearch, it seems the arc of her career was pre-internet so dead tree sources will be needed to show notability. Given that she was a female television producer in the years before that was at all common, I'd be surprised if she isn't notable in her own right even if her ballet career wasn't notable. Until dead tree sources can be scared up, merge might be the way to go.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  13:29, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * She might qualify/have qualified for notability based on the circumstances of her death, i.e. being accompanied by her children for voluntary euthanasia in Switzerland due to terminal cancer, and whatever consequences and emanations result from that, which have yet to be seen. But I do agree that any of that could/can yet be covered on Edward Downes' page. (Not knowing a person (especially a woman performer)'s age does not necessarily mean non-notability. Some people fight tooth and nail to keep their age secret.) Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 13:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Actually, we do know her age.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  14:19, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Right, sorry. I meant date and place of birth. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 19:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * It's not for others to have to prove non-notability. It's for the author of the article to prove notability.  That certainly hasn't happened yet.  --  JackofOz (talk) 13:40, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * What intrigues me, Rms125a@hotmail.com, is what led you to believe in the first place that she might be notable? And then, having searched far and wide and found nothing on her, why you still believed she might be notable?  Unusual circumstances of death do not make people notable.  We're hearing about the Swiss clinic because it was her husband who was involved, and he was certainly notable.  But if Joe Bloggs and his wife had done the same thing, would it have been reported? And even if it had been, would we have any articles at all about the Bloggses, let alone separate articles on Mr and Mrs Bloggs?  --  JackofOz (talk) 14:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Look, I concede that she may be found lacking in NOTABILITY. I am not particularly attached to the article; I just felt that based on her career(s) and the circumstances of her death she merited a page of her own. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 19:22, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Please remain civil, the articles author has already said he believes that notability may lie in her career(s). Dylanfromthenorth (talk) 15:10, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * That appears to have been directed at me. I don't believe I've been at all incivil, I'm just arguing strongly for deletion.  But I've made my point, so I'll shut up now.  --  JackofOz (talk) 19:31, 16 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete without prejudice. Article can be re-created if notability is established.  ReverendWayne (talk) 18:38, 16 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.