Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joe Cole (roadie)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Of note is that the user who provided the "weak delete or redirect" !vote stated in a later comment that they would consider a page move of the article to "Murder of Joe Cole" to be acceptable. Discussion regarding a page move can continue on the article's talk page, if desired. North America1000 03:34, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Joe Cole (roadie)

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BIO1E. IMDB entry shows no major roles or credits. MSJapan (talk) 23:34, 6 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions.  lavender |(formerly HMSSolent )| lambast  00:18, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions.  lavender |(formerly HMSSolent )| lambast  00:18, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions.  lavender |(formerly HMSSolent )| lambast  00:18, 7 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep - he's a pretty well-known murder victim; it could be renamed Murder of Joe Cole —Мандичка YO 😜 03:44, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Weak delete or redirect: At present, the article exists because it is linked from 100% (Sonic Youth song) and others. Joe Cole is a cultural reference for the LA punk scene, and so there is a fair amount of documentation of the story. So. . . reference, documentation. . . however, is there enough there to make a biography? It seems as if a biographical article might be overkill, but the articles that refer to him should flesh out their mentions into explanations. Again, this is a very weak delete from me. Hithladaeus (talk) 14:15, 7 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I could support a rename/redefine, but I'm not sure that's a "motion" to make in an AfD. I would move to Keep a well-sourced Murder of Joe Cole article because of how widely documented and affecting the event was. (Wikipedia is not a memorial, but there are Stagger Lees and the like.) Hithladaeus (talk) 01:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment I could see a rename, although frankly, the extent of the article would still be little more than "Joe Cole was a roadie for Black Flag whose murder became an often-referenced cultural touchstone for the LA punk movement in the 1980s." There's nothing outside that timeframe or scene that I am aware of, and there isn't really any useful detail I've found on the murder other than its occurrence.  Therefore, I think that the individual expansion in all the linked articles, while more tedious, ultimately would be much better, though, honestly, a lot of it is a "pop culture" trivia-type thing in the end, as are a lot of other song references by many other acts. MSJapan (talk) 04:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment There's a lengthy account of his murder and its aftermath in James Parker's Turned on: A Biography of Henry Rollins Colapeninsula although a lot of that's about how Rollins reacted. His book is discussed or mentioned in some books on alt/punk music, but doesn't seem to have got much critical attention, or any coverage in mainstream press. (talk) 10:25, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 02:09, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment - additionally Rollins has discussed it frequently on stage and in articles like this one. It was also featured on Unsolved Mysteries back in the day.  —Мандичка YO 😜 10:48, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Reply So what you're saying is that the event is notable in a very small group of people (and is in fact almost entirely Rollins-driven in its coverage), but the person is not? MSJapan (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Generally I think that's right, but it's not just Rollins. If it were, then this would be a much clearer case of merge/redirect to Henry Rollins. The problem is that Sonic Youth also wrote a song obliquely about the incident, and it was on one of their better selling albums and was chosen as part of their "Hits are for Squares" package. So. . . there are probably quite a few allusions outside of Rollins (maybe "The Decline and Fall of Western Civilization 2?"), but nothing seems to make the bio pass the bar. Hithladaeus (talk) 01:57, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I added a posthumous video made form video interviews he recorded in life, sourced to a brief but positive review in Rolling Stone, and a long news article about the impression the murder made on Sonic Youth and the music it inspired.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:29, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * There's more non-Rollins material in Goodbye 20th Century: A Biography of Sonic Youth,By David Browne, and in Babes in Toyland: The Making and Selling of a Rock and Roll Band,By Neal Karlen.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep and rename Murder of Joe Cole.  This is too well-sourced to delete.  I take User:Hithladaeus's point about the lack of an adequate topic to merge into.  Certailny it should be renamed, since notability is entirely posthumous.  But when I ran a Proquest newspaper search on Joe + Cole +  "Henry Rollins" I was stunned to find scores of articles in which this death is discussed at remarkable length.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I would support such a move. Hithladaeus (talk) 01:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep He is notable for his own works in addition to his death. The article could use improvement and expansion, though. I would not object strenuously to a move, but do not believe it is necessary.  Scr ★ pIron IV 14:07, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Strong keep Subject is more than notable with many reliable references. Neptune&#39;s Trident (talk)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.