Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joe Loughmuller


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Stifle (talk) 11:36, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

Joe Loughmuller

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Fails WP:GNG and WP:MUSICBIO. Article about the late drummer of a jazz band that appears to be more WP:MEMORIAL than anything else. Half a dozen references, but most are essentially referring to the liner notes of the tribute album the band made for Mr. Loughmuller after his death (and released on a non-notable local Seattle label). The Heritage Review is a one-man self-published newsletter about the Seattle music scene. I can't find any reliable sources about Mr. Loughmuller, and few for the Great Excelsior Jazz Band either. Richard3120 (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 15:14, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 15:15, 15 July 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete - I must agree with the nominator. Most or all of this drummer's work was with the Great Excelsior Jazz Band, and if there were an article about them (which seems like a remote possibility) he could be mentioned there. Otherwise Mr. Loughmuller does not have the independent notability required for an article. ---  DOOMSDAYER 520 (Talk&#124;Contribs) 17:22, 15 July 2019 (UTC)
 * So, why not label it a stub and let it be improved as time goes by?  One thing not mentioned here is information about people such as Joe who  were not active in the age of the internet do not have as many online citations as people who do things during the internet age. Going into microfiche of various newspapers would turn out more info.  Funny that the Haritage Music Review is dismissed as a "One man self published news letter."  Oh, like IF Stone's Weekly or work by Tom Paine?  Doug Bright  published the Heritage Music Review  for dozens of years on paper even though he was blind and reported on what he heard and not what he saw.  Only a small portion of his extended publishing is on line. His reports are invaluable to anyone who wants to seek them out and learn about the Seattle music scene of his time.  It should also be noted that Joe did not just gig with the Great Excelsior Jazz band but performed with various jazz groups. Too bad there is no online info about that. I was talking to the Seattle bass player Pete Leinonen recently and he told me that Joe had so many drumming gigs that he'd get calls from Joe to play in his place when Joe was overbooked.  One reason Joe got so many drumming gigs in Seattle up until his death was he was a drummer's drummer, more in the school of Dave Tough than Gene Krupa. He improved every band he played in even though many didn't notice him until he sang. Improving this page would mean looking for musty copies of the Seattle Sun, The Rocket, The UW Daily, and various other Seattle publications that do not have an online presence. I welcome you to have at it. Thanks, Dennis William Nyback

If you are interested in learning more about Doug Bright, look here  http://www.fremocentrist.com/commentary/?p=733


 * Please read WP:SOURCESMAYEXIST. If you truly believe that there are articles about Mr. Loughmuller in The Seattle Times, etc. then the onus is on you to find those sources and add them when you create the article, not to create an article without reliable sources and then expect others to look for them. I agree with you that a major flaw with Wikipedia is that it's easier to find information about artists in the internet age, but that can't be helped. I never disparaged Mr. Bright's hard work in producing the newsletter, I am just pointing out that it does not meet the Wikipedia criteria for WP:RS. Nor have you addressed the issue of how Mr. Loughmuller passes WP:GNG or WP:MUSICBIO, you've just given your personal opinion of him and added links to three of the band's songs on YouTube in the article. Richard3120 (talk) 11:48, 18 July 2019 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Just Chilling (talk) 15:23, 22 July 2019 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ‑Scottywong | spout _ 01:56, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
 * Keep. Weak sources, but verifiability is not in question, and there is no smell of promotion.  The content of http://www.heritagemusicreview.com/articles/March1982C.txt influences me, it is weak in the form of an email that transcribes an old article, but it rings true, more sources surely exist just not online, and again, verifiability is not in question.  Instead, a notable historic musician for whom sources are affected by systematic bias.  --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:19, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but I don't follow your reasoning at all. Verifiability is very much in question – of the two sources cited that could possibly be considered reliable, the book talks about the local musicians' union, not the band, and the newspaper article quotes the group's bass player talking about how good his group were, without ever mentioning Mr. Loughmuller. You are influenced by the e-mail, which is simply a copy of the article written by Mr. Bright for his own self-published newsletter... again, not an RS. You cite WP:SOURCESMUSTEXIST and call the subject "a notable musician" without providing any evidence for these claims, simply that they "ring true". Richard3120 (talk) 14:14, 6 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete I would suggest SmokeyJoe to read WP:NRV which says there needs to be evidence that the subject had a significant coverage, and second WP:MUSTBESOURCES that his argument is discarded on AfDs (note that there is admission that the sources are weak, which actually gives a Delete argument rather than a Keep one). Now, onto the notability of the subject. I am personally a huge fan of creating articles about people which work is now historical, but Joe isn't a one. All Goggle Books results gave passing mentions, and there were 0 sources to be find in my searches. If he was actually truly notable at some point of his career, someone would have cared to mention him 38 years after his death. Listings of the song, and a coverage about a band (WP:NOTINHERITED) do not establish a notability per WP:BASIC. I don't see any case of WP:NMUSIC being met, no prolific awards WP:ANYBIO either. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 15:22, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Weak keep - I can see several possibly good sources on Google books. Bearian (talk) 18:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Which are? Jovanmilic97 (talk) 18:22, 7 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment As a response to a (very unhelpful comment which doesn't help establish the notability here), I will list all of the GBooks searches. None of the books mentioned here represent WP:SIGCOV, and thus aren't good sources for establishing notability.
 * Jazz: Traditional Jazz, 1897-1985, passing mention
 * 60 years of recorded jazz 1917-1977", passing mention
 * Cadence, passing mention
 * Schwann-1, Record & Tape Guide, passing mention
 * Jazz Scrapbook: Dick Oxtot - Me & Other Stuff, passing mention
 * Jazz Journal International, passing mention. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 18:30, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thank you for doing the work of WP:BEFORE. I'm now a delete. Bearian (talk) 19:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.