Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joel Kass


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete -- JForget  23:35, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Joel Kass

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Hoax, Sockpuppetry Meatstrain (talk) 13:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete Googling (Zero hits for "Nacht Der Tanz" outside WP, Opus 114 is from Brahms, opus 711 doesn't exist...), the fact that Nacht Der Tanz isn't proper german (should say "Nacht des Tanzes" or "Der Tanz der Nacht" or similar) and the fact that the subject probably doesn't even know german makes me think that the accusation of this being a hoax might be true. --PaterMcFly (talk) 14:28, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. What sockpuppetry? --Metropolitan90 (talk) 14:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Sockpuppetry is not a valid reason for deletion (WP:SSP is two doors down to the left). And just saying "hoax" is not as well either. You need to support your claims better. There is a whole slew of references. Unfortunately, it seems none are available online (not even in Amazon or google preview). So we need to find a trusted user who can track down a few of these books and see if Joel is actually mentioned on these pages. If so, then I believe notability is established and we should focus on specific claims which are considered dubious. If Joel is not in fact mentioned in the claimed cited sources, then we should delete as a hoax. But really, this issue seems to be dependent on the veracity of the citations. I'll see if any of the books are at my local library, but do we have any other established users willing to track down any of these sources?-Andrew c [talk] 14:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note At least one user on the talk page claims he checked some of the sources and found nothing. And here comes in the sock-puppetry: Most of the users that worked on the article and commented on the talk page seem to be interested in this article only. So it seems we currently don't have a claim whether the sources are fake or their questioning is inappropriate. This by itself is clearly not a reason for deletion, but it is at least suspicious. --PaterMcFly (talk) 14:42, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note Being the individual that nominated for deletion, I should probably enumerate my reasons for doing so: 1) Several times removed interview links going to 404 errors and domain placeholders after attempting to locate the interviews via The Wayback Machine and/or Googling. They reappeared the next day and were "verified" by another individual. 2)Removed a mention that there were Forums for the individual because merely having forums is not noteworthy. Also made note that forums looked to be "forged" (I would now refer to the forums as sockpuppetry as well).  This deletion was also undone without discussion as to how having forums was noteworthy.  3) Joel Kass is at best a minor composer yet almost a dozen individuals have edited the article. The only article edited by any of these users is the Joel Kass, Kass media group, and Nacht Der Tanz articles - except for one edit by one of the users to the Mozart article. (These articles refer to Joel Kass, his enterprises, and his musical style)   4) I attempted to verify claims that Kass guest conducted and/or had works performed by the New York and New Jersey Symphony Philharmonic Orchestras. The New York Philharmonic website contains no information about Kass being a guest conductor or being performed. In a personal email sent to the conductor of the NJSO, the conductor/directory (Nam Yim Kim) stated that he had never heard of Joel Kass.  As a further note, I have requested several of the books through Inter-Library Loan and am expecting them sometime next week.  However, as several are limited run books they are difficult to get a hold of and has resulted in a delay on obtaining the books I requested. Meatstrain (talk) 15:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment See also Articles for deletion/Nacht Der Tanz, and Articles for deletion/Kass media group, all three closely related and equally dubious articles. Keeper   |   76   |   Disclaimer  16:15, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Note I contributed to this article for school. I am happy to discuss it and the texts that I used. You also may wish to do more internet research including Billboard Top 200 CD's . The CD was produced and written by Mr Kass and hit #146 on the Billboard Charts USA wide this year. The issue of the spelling of Nacht Der Tanz was actually discussed and its proper spelling. I do not have all the refferences however, I am happy to provide both information and fax the actual pages to admins if they so wish that I added as I have the books. The article has to be revised due to vadadalism. If the admins can private message me, i can fax or scan a copy of the pages for their review for the ones I added. On the other articles I do not have any information.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by OhSheilaOh (talk • contribs) 18:22, 10 July 2008 (UTC)  — OhSheilaOh (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * So, Mr. Kass wrote an album for Teddy Brent (also not notable), which garnered a billboard blip, and got this review? Looking forward to seeing what else you can find, that's not doing it for me.  Keeper   |   76   |   Disclaimer  18:48, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note Then move to delete. No sleep lost on my end. OhSheilaOh (talk) 18:54, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per Keeper, and a complete lack of notability. S. Dean Jameson 19:00, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete Direct decendant of 4 brothers? Incest anyone? Is that even possible in 2 generations? And Tanz der Nacht is certainly not correct German. Smells like a hoax, and if it wasn't then is still not notable.Yobmod (talk) 19:14, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Keep it neutral. Also, far be it from to speak only negatively about an article that I've proposed for deletion: I believe the article says "musical descendant." -- Meatstrain (talk) 19:23, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  20:45, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment As i stated, I am a student at NYU. I did a research project on him in the music school here and added my info to an already existing entry. I am certainly *not* a wiki pro, but i am trying to learn! There has been so much vadalalism to that page, it does not even look like what it was originally. I would say delete it. I offfered to give admins either a fax or email or any photocopy of the books as i still have the photocopies from the library but that is not accepted. The refs are correct for the ones i did MeatStrain. I have no clue why you and ryan got into a battle, but if you want a copy of the refs i have, im more than happy to provide them in either photocopy or scan version. Defaming the guy on the net by accusations of everything from terrorism to running all the banks to incest i think would also be beyond what wiki permits as well and at least for some people in that discussion could get them into legal issues. I hope to become a better contributor to Wiki!! OhSheilaOh (talk) 22:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: A little OT Long story short here, Ryan beta began attacking the Saint Dominic page in response to the request for deletion. I don't know if he's been blocked or not, but now SpicyMeatGrinder has begun attacking the same page.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meatstrain (talk • contribs) 01:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: Meatstrain, i have a positive idea. Why don't you and ryan talk to each other in pm and then let Wiki delete both the pages? Your last edit deleted all of someones comments and there was no debate. You essesntially did the same thing you are complaing about. Admins, go to the Dominic page yourself. Talk to the guy or lady directly not on the forum and send him/her a private message. What he did by deleting your critiques was wrong. Also, I am a music major and I highly doubt you contacted Kim as we can not even get him to lecture here. I have no clue who both you are, but you both seem intelligent and have gone on some religious and personal battle that does not belong on Wiki. You both have valid points of discussion. Wars can end when people speak to each other. Call a truce and then both you and ryan are the winners. When Wiki becomes like Google I am going to apply to be a Wiki therapist:) OhSheilaOh (talk) 02:22, 11 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Delete as blatant hoax A photo on the article has a caption stating that it is Joel Kass conducting with the Vienna Symphonic Orchestra. A music sample states that it is from a recording by the London Philharmonic Orchestra. Another music sample states that it is from a recording from the New York Philharmonic. Yet there's nothing on the internet that I can find about these orchestra performing any music composed or conducted by Joel Kass. I note that none of the photos depict anyone clearly. I also note that the music samples all exceed the 30 seconds limit of fair use and that there is a lack of info regarding where the recording is from. Article also makes many other outlandish claim about collaborating with the likes of Mariah Carey, Toni Braxton and Dr. Dre. I have the New Grove Dictionary of Music with me and there is no Joel Kass in there. If this article is legitimate, this guy should be in there. Closing admin, please delete all the related photos and music samples as well. --Bardin (talk) 04:33, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

— MostofAll4It (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * '''Comment: Delete this article. I work for KMG and I heard about the article series this afternoon and it is (a) violation GFDL (b) contains a mixture of some items that are correct and some items that are not. Sheila, Ryan, Meatstrain and the gang, adding pictures and songs that are not GFDL as well as an information that is simply false (the parents name are not correct, he has never met Dr. Dre, and too many others) is ficticious and some of it slander. Further, the work for those artists Sheila was not collaboration, it was arrangement, and that is big difference. If admins want my personal email at KMG, feel free to add to to my talk page. Please take it all down immediately if not for some of the obnoxious claims on here, but simply on the basis that it violates GFDL. I will post my email to the admins if they need further correspondance. Ryan and Sheila, if you upload content for any KMG artist or library item we have, I will have it forwarded to legal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MostofAll4It (talk • contribs) 00:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete As the sources are investigated, they've proved to be not independant and/or false.  The bad German strongly indicates falsity as well. Edward321 (talk) 13:59, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep 

At first, I was on the side to delete it a few days ago when I stumbled across it, but after reading the discussion that followed and now doing my own research at the library without the admins turned religious warriors, students, and other ad-hoc researchers I have my own research and conclusions. Alot of the admins sucked into this one were part of the ryan vs meatstrain war about some posting on a Dominican page. This is more like a soap opera than a discussion...lol. I was simply drawn to page to see the interesting cyber battles and having a boring day will jump into the mosh pit with my obsessive-compulsive urge and X files influenced curiosity. -

(a) Edward, the only person who has evaluated all the sources is some person named Abdul Zayed who also claims he was involved in a 'Jewish worldwide conspiracy against Palestine'. If that a legitimate fact check, I am going to write an article on George Bush and why he is a verifiable idiot and post my sources. All the verifications are going to come from me and on the same page, I state I think Bush is a religious dictator; I am going to do a source check since I am neutral and I expect you to support me.

(b) The Deutsch Volk like Pater and exc...There is something called 'Yiddish' and its not the same as German, though does use similar words (according to my co-worker who is Jewish). The correct usage in the books I found was not Nacht Der Tanz its Nachte Taeze and several other variations. Did I mention that I believe religion to be the cause of all wars and am proud to be an athiest against all fairy tales and that though I am raised Catholic I reject all fantasy? I might be banned by the Catholic mafia admins on here for that...but so it goes.

(c) Bardin, I am guitar player and have worked with several major people in the industry including Mary j and recently Janet Jackson and I am not in that book for 10+ years and have many more names on the shelf than this guy does. If you want to be in those books, there is an easy way: you pay them. Hundreds of people work with these artists. So is the standard finding the actual references or notability or seeing if I can see a face or how I conform to what seems to be a group of admins pissed about a religious issue or just being nice to an admin so he will go with what I want to say and get all the people I dont like off Wiki? Your page says you are a lawyer and that the New Grove Dictionary of Music is the standard for your research? I can pay that book to be placed in it....then will you place me on Wiki? If you are a lawyer, and I will take your word for it that you are, that is possibly the lamest prosecution I have heard.

(d) Yes, I am obsessive compulsive and frequently go on quests such as this (maybe Jesus, Buddha, or Zeus is cursing me?) as I question everything...I am probably going to Hell (sorry Pater, Edward and other friends of the Lord).

(e) Lady from KMG, stop the thought control along with some of the admins. For the GFDL, I am with you since I am a musician and not a lawyer or a specialist in the Dominican Friars. People are interested about the person, you cannot stop either people from writing a good or bad (as per billboard) review. For the GFDL, sue them if they post it again. For the rest, sorry...it is a free world...or at least before George Bush, it was free.

(f) Sheila, upload any song I have worked on and you can chat to the RIAA next.

(g) Meatstrain, some good points in there, but emailing all your admin friends to say its a hoax does not establish notability.

I went to the library and found three of the books and here we go:

'The Book of Klezmer'  p. 115 paragraph six: 'Joel Kass (b.1968) was influential in the synthesis between klezmer and orchestral elements along with mentor Merlin Shepard who was the taught traditional klezmer in schools and yeshivas across the country in the mid eighties. Bands such as Habrera Hativeet continued this trend blending eastern and Middle Eastern melodies.

page 119: In 1991 Joel Kass performed at Klezkamp and has been an influential part of the revival of klezmer music along with others such as Giora Feidman who after winning praise in Europe left the Israel Philharmonic to focus solely on klezmer developing the Night Dance.

(picture of the guy in front on an orchestra not same as site with caption, 'Kass conducting in Austria 1991'

I then sent the email to the band Habrea Hativeet and asked, do you know who a Joel Kass is and if he did anything notable in any way? Here is the response:

Hello Sir

Thank to you for contacting with question in polite way. I meet him twice when he perform here but do not know him so can not be authority on topic but he do create the Dance of Night. 'Nacht Der Tanz' is probably trying to render Yiddish which is not German but mean Dance of Night in English. We have simmilar problem with word to go to Arabic or Polish as my first language is Moroccan and second is Hebrew so even my own word to you may be confusing. For book you mention it was funny as I know the authors son who live here with wife and own book so he is in that and the quote you have is correct. Other than this I do not know him personal however I do have relative who may have more information if u wish it.

Best of wishes to you

Shlomo Bar

>>>>

Greetings from the USA!

I am currently researching a book called the Book of Klezmer and an article that refers to a person in it named Joel Kass. I found your address via the website, and hope this email finds you in good health. I listened to your performance on the NPR clip and you have a very nice voice. I play guitar as a session player here, so if you are ever in the neighborhood, I would be excited to create some new material. Below are the quotes I have:

'The Book of Klezmer'  p. 115 paragraph six: 'Joel Kass (b.1968) was influential in the synthesis between klezmer and orchestral elements along with mentor Merlin Shepard who was the taught traditional klezmer in schools and yeshivas across the country in the mid eighties. Bands such as Habrera Hativeet continued this trend blending eastern and Middle Eastern melodies.

page 119: In 1991 Joel Kass performed at Klezkamp and has been an influential part of the revival of klezmer music along with others such as Giora Feidman who after winning praise in Europe left the Israel Philharmonic to focus solely on klezmer.

-

'A-Z of Classical Composers' page 21-22:

Howard Joel Kass: American composer and descendant of Serge Koussevitzky whose work has focused on the synthesis of klezmer and classical arrangements. Noted for the creation of Nachte Tants (Yiddish for Dance of the Night) also referred to as Nachte Taeze. References:

a.Feldman, Walter. "Bulgareasca/Bulgarish/Bulgar: The Transformation of a Klezmer Dance Genre," Ethnomusicology 38:1 (1994), 36. b.Goren, Ayalah. 1986. "The Ethnic Dance in Israel, with Selected filmography," Jewish Folklore and Ethnology Newsletter 8/3-4:2. c.Friedland, LeeEllen. 1985-86. "Tantsn Is Lebn: Dancing in Eastern European Jewish Culture," Dance Research Journal 17/2 & 18/1:77-80.

I then went to look at the 3 above and found one of them, (a):

'Although highly influenced by the works of Debussy, H. Joel Kass brought together Polish klezmer and orchestral arrangement in his "Dance of the Night", a new development in the continuing evolution of the genre.'

A Bibliography of Computer Music page 23:

..Kevin Saunderson, Joel Kass and others who in the Detroit metro area contributed to the development of 'House Music'. Saunderson has become influential post his Inner City days as a producer in the UK where House continues to thrive...

page 45:

...and Joel Kass who worked programmed the MPC beats for producers such as Rick Wake in the NYC Hip Hop era of the 90's (followed by a ref to the keyboard magazine link that meatstrainer said he could not find). So my quest continued.

Instead of using Wayback, I went to that aged thing called the stack room and asked the librarian to get me that keyboard magazine article to which I have located it. The article itself does not prove notabiltity, its simply a short interview on what kinds of a type of gear that was common at the time called a Fairlight system (3 paragraphs). It was new and he worked at Powerstation in NYC making music, which does not make it notable, but the magazine is there.

That’s what I think.

Your always loud, atheist, and disagreeable obsessive compulsive neighbor GuitarHeronVegas (talk) 22:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC) — GuitarHeronVegas (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * You make some interesting points and raise some interesting theories. Even if the articles are in existence - and I see no need, at this point to argue whether they are or aren't - it does not prove any sort of notability. As an aside, what is your source for positing that AbdulZayed3432 and the person verifying the research are all the same person. There have been many accusations of sockpuppetry (including by me, I'll admit), but if you have some evidence of the sockpuppetry please back it up so that we can move them to the WP:SPP list. Meatstrain (talk) 02:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment

Now the mystery comes clearer. The individual who starts the misinformation leaves his IP to a dsl open as its dedicated and currently on (bad mistake) at 98-204-112-64.dsl.tc3net.com. Thanks to sattalite photography, i have an actual physical location and address to that line. My friend in Detroit MI is driving there on Monday or Tuesday to sort this out. More info including colorful pictures not to exceed Wiki standards to come.

Admins, the ISBN as well as other information was changed several hours and even to the point of minutes before the article is nominated for deletion. Until the sources are (a) verified and (b) either notable or not has been established, please take out the vandalism here: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Kass&diff=prev&oldid=224772436. Why Pater, our faithful Dominican protector admin and Andrew C 'forgot' to mention that the sources had been changed before nominating it for deletion is pretty interesting and...in a twisted way brilliant. The actual sources were made bogus just a few minutes before we start the debate.

Below is my case for sock puppery at 98-204-112-64.dsl.tc3net.com and what I believe is the source of clearly bogus information created to confuse those who actually wanted to have a debate on the topic.

After several edits of Abdul,98-204-112-64.dsl.tc3net.com and meatstrain and ryan beta of both the Joel Kass page and the Dominicans, we have meanstrain who edits the same two accounts, followed up by 'AbdulZayed' who not only changes the words to butress the users input at 98-204-112-64.dsl.tc3net.com, but also concludes with the following:

It is also important to note that Meatstrain, who I highly respect, has been working many hours to show truth. There are many items in it that are clearly anti-Islamic.198.43.144.124 (talk) 09:35, 10 July 2008 (UTC) - I doubt this person is a Muslim, but if you look at the times, meatstrain, 98-204-112-64.dsl.tc3net.com and AbdulZayed literally are working seconds apart. Then, Ryan-beta, our hero in waiting defaces the page. The other IP's listed came back to Comcast in Detroit and Exon Mobile that were traceable for the page. My guess is that they are either (a) all the same person or (b) something out of an Opus Dei movie.

Then, just as meatstrain has made his case, within just a few seconds we have:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Joel_Kass&diff=prev&oldid=224769785 : oh goodness, what a surprise, Abdul who backs up meatstrain that the forums are fake and he has the logs to Yahoo (this is beyond humor that yahoo would hand over ip logs)and amazingly uses the same typeface, sentence structure and much more. What a coicidence.

AbulZayed then goes to assist with the following:

(1) purposely changed the ISBN's to make them bogus so that no one could locate them: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Kass&diff=prev&oldid=224772436 thus, further adding to the bogus charge. Then, he (2)destroyed the citations at the top: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joel_Kass&diff=prev&oldid=224772276 and add some vandalism work, my guess is to pretend unsucessfully as a Muslim and make it look like 98-204-112-64.dsl.tc3net.com was just a coincidence. I also found simmilar work with the whole Nacht Der Tanz issue.

Finally, we close on who or what this is. Right after the post from meatstrain about source verification, we have our sole verifier, who only comes on

Is 98-204-112-64.dsl.tc3net.com a sock pup or the residence of the author? Its a dedicated dsl line it would seem. I did a google search for adrian+joel kass and adrian+dominican. For Adrian and Dominican, there is an entire company there called the Adrian Dominican Sisters. I have a call into Sister Carleen Maly, OP Director of Vocations, 1257 East Siena Heights Drive. There is some relationship between the two. Anyhow, on Monday i will find out what is the relationship and if either Joel Kass is actually a Dominican Friar or if someone at that place has something to shed some light. I also recieved have 2 of the books coming this week before Abdul/98-204-112-64.dsl.tc3net.com defaced them. More info to come.

All roads end at 98-204-112-64.dsl.tc3net.com. Please have that IP blocked as from the evidence pointed above.


 * Comment Ignoring all the insults above, I appologize for not having seen the vandalism abdul had done. At that time I didn't check hard enought whether the change was meaningful, and a short time after, the article was protected anyway. I've fixed it now. --PaterMcFly (talk) 09:52, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I am, in fact, the IP address. I registered a username not to lend credibility to any of my arguments but because I realized that it was inappropriate and downright irresponsible to make any non-grammatical fixes without a username. If you believe that I have a sock-puppet you should run a checkuser. I encourage you to do so if you believe that it is the case. Meatstrain (talk) 19:38, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Just to clarify: the 98.204.112.64 IP address is what I meant by "the IP address." Meatstrain (talk) 19:50, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment GuitarHeronVegas seems rather informed for someone whose first post was this Afd. Edward321 (talk) 16:11, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.