Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Fitsioris


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. –&#8239;Joe (talk) 08:23, 9 June 2021 (UTC)

John Fitsioris

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Played 13 minutes of Greek basketball, can't find anything written on him (I did not search in Greek, though), but clearly fails WP:NBASKET and likely fails WP:GNG. Also a promotional concern with the article as written. SportingFlyer  T · C  21:36, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. SportingFlyer  T · C  21:36, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Basketball-related deletion discussions. SportingFlyer  T · C  21:36, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Greece-related deletion discussions. SportingFlyer  T · C  21:36, 9 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment a short search on newspapers.com did turn up two substantial articles about him . The 13 minutes you are referencing to are only from two games in the Korac Cup in 1993, not the Greek Basket League. One of the articles shows that he was playing in Greece as early as 1989. Alvaldi (talk) 11:29, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Prep sports sections don't count towards notability. SportingFlyer  T · C  12:07, 15 May 2021 (UTC)


 * As far as I know there is nothing in Wikipedia's guidelines that prohibits using non-routine prep coverage towards showing a persons notability. Regardless, there is also available coverage about his college career from the same major newspaper. I also dug up that his first name is spelled Giannis (which translates to John) in Greek. Looking for that I found evidence that he played in Greece from at least 1989 to 1998, including in the Greek Basket League, which, acording to WP:NBASKET, means that there is likely a substantial coverage about him. He played for the Panionios B.C. from 1989 to 1994, which suggests that he was on the 1991 Greek Cup winning team. Alvaldi (talk) 12:22, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:YOUNGATH is the specific guideline there, all of the coverage appears to be of him as a prep sports player so far. You are correct it appears to have had a longer Greek career than the article stated, though. SportingFlyer  T · C  16:40, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:YOUNGATH basically says the same as WP:GNG, that the coverage should be independent of the subject (i.e no school papers or websites) and clearly go beyond WP:ROUTINE. The coverage is undoubtedly independent of the subject and I can't see how it could be classified as routine. These are not game play summaries, statistical results, or routine interviews. These are indepth coverage about the subject from his high school, college and early professional career. On top of that played he several seasons in a major basketball league, which according to WP:NBASKET generally has substantial coverage on its players. Those sources would be non-english, pre-internet and not written in the latin alphabet. Alvaldi (talk) 22:10, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * YOUNGATH goes much further than the GNG: basically, it says you can't be notable if you've only received normal prep sports coverage, since it defines it all as routine. Otherwise every good high school sports player in the US would be eligible for an article. There are exceptions, but you basically have to have national coverage. That sort of knocks out the first and last article you've posted (the last one talks about his pro career but it's clearly a "local boy makes good" article), and the second article is routine local coverage of a D-III basketball team, it looks like the paper sent out a freelancer to cover a local team. If Fitsioris is notable, it's because he played basketball in Greece for awhile, and he could be - he had a longer career than I found initially, but he's not notable because there's a couple articles written about him in his local paper. SportingFlyer  T · C  22:52, 15 May 2021 (UTC)
 * WP:YOUNGATH says no such thing. Regarding coverage, it states that it has to clearly go beyond WP:ROUTINE coverage and that excludes the majority of local coverage in both news sources and sports specific publications. Nowhere does it state that all prep sports coverage is routine and thus null and void. And even if it did, WP:NSPORT which WP:YOUNGATH is part of, clearly states that the topic-specific notability guidelines described on this page do not replace the general notability guideline. The was majority of sports coverage is routine (player x scored x many points and maybe an interview where x states the team has to sport better in the next game) but articles that go indepth into the subject are not routine, especially not when it is in the second largest newspaper in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Alvaldi (talk) 10:35, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Right, it excludes the majority of local coverage in both news sources and sport specific publications. This is local news coverage in a local news source, it doesn't matter if it's a feature article, feature articles are routinely written about local athletes who aren't otherwise notable. SportingFlyer  T · C  11:06, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Majority does not equal all and feature articles are not routine articles, they are exactly what contributes towards a persons notability. Alvaldi (talk) 11:11, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. "Majority" means that if he were on the cover of Sports Illustrated for being a prep sports star, then we could have an article on him (that's the example I remember.) But YOUNGATH is designed to make sure we don't mass create articles on high school players who their local paper wrote about. As I've noted for Fitsiodis, he wasn't a notable prep sports player (only local coverage); he wasn't a notable college player (only local coverage of a D-III team); he may be a notable professional player, but we need confirmation from Greek sources for that. SportingFlyer  T · C  11:27, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Again, nowhere does WP:GNG, WP:NSPORT, WP:YOUNGATH or WP:NBASKETBALL say any of these things. The bottom line is that the only thing that is needed is significant coverage in multiple reliable sources that are independent of the subject. If the sources were from The Mt. Lebanon News or the The Mt. Lebanon Almanac then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. But they aren't from small town local newspapers, they are from major Pennsylvania newspapers. Alvaldi (talk) 12:54, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Whether the paper is "major" or "minor" doesn't matter for the purposes of YOUNGATH.

Keep - Passes WP:GNG with multiple indepth articles written about him in major newspaper publications. On a further note, he He also played several seasons in the Greek Basket League, which according to WP:NBASKET generally has substantial coverage on its players. Those pre-internet sources would be non-english and not written in the latin alphabet. Alvaldi (talk) 12:55, 16 May 2021 (UTC)
 * As noted, the "multiple in-depth articles" were in the local prep sports section, and have nothing to do with the actual reason why he would be notable, which is playing in the Greek basketball league. I'm happy to withdraw, but only if we can prove he was a notable player in the Greek league. SportingFlyer  T · C  15:51, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CommanderWaterford (talk) 22:44, 16 May 2021 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America1000 06:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and a complete lack of independent, sustained coverage in independent, secondary sources indicates a lack of notability. Further, playing 13 minutes is an achievement worthy of failing ANYBIO. ——  Serial  15:38, 24 May 2021 (UTC)
 * There are already multiple independent, secondary sources in the article from two major Pennsylvania newspapers. And the nomination claim of "13 minutes of Greek basketball" is deeply flawed, as the 13 minutes in question are from two games from the quarter- and semi-finals of the 1994 FIBA Korać Cup, not his whole career. The man played 10 years in Greece, including in the top-tier Greek Basketball League (which does pass WP:NBASKETBALL), pre-internet and yet neither you nore the nominator did bother to perform a WP:BEFORE in Greece sources (that use the Greek alphabet for the record). Alvaldi (talk) 16:48, 24 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete. Lacks in-depth coverage to meet WP:NBIO. MrsSnoozyTurtle 00:45, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom and Serial. There is some depth to the coverage, but not in the only segment of the subject that would potentially merit notability (the Greek Basket League). WP:BEFORE does not reveal any more depth in this area than has been suggested by supporters of deletion. — Alalch Emis (talk) 16:09, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep: Fitsioris played multiple seasons in the Greek Basket League, which confers notability via WP:NHOOPS. The section about the Greek Basket League can be expanded with more sources. Crossover1370  (talk &#124; contribs) 19:15, 7 June 2021 (UTC)
 * It would be an instance of presumed notability, yes, but per WP:BASIC, either a little bit of depth or multiple non-trivial sources are still needed. — Alalch Emis (talk) 23:37, 7 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.