Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Mason (schoolmaster)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. (non-admin closure) → B  music  ian  01:38, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

John Mason (schoolmaster)

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fails WP:BIO. The articles cited are not in depth about Mason but merely confirm his existence. LibStar (talk) 10:30, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Dahliarose (talk) 11:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 11:29, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. &#9733;&#9734;  DUCK IS JAMMMY &#9734;&#9733; 11:29, 16 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete. Not sure how notable he is, especially in light of the major blanketing of Wikipedia with Doon School trivia, all in the last few months, all by one or two editors. There are many many schools in India, some much (see here for example).  They all have lists of headmasters, some better known, but I don't see pages for them.  This has come up for deletion only because someone imagined it worthy of a page.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  12:07, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: since this is listed at ARS, I'll refrain from an early !vote, but I did already note some surprising mentions of this person in The Times of India, e.g., ("renowned educationist John Mason"),  ("legendary teacher, John Mason"),  ("Imagine this: a school on a sprawling 40-acre campus, world-class facilities and — more importantly — with John Mason as its head (yes, the man who put St James' on top of the heap a few years back but then left for Dubai).")--Milowent • hasspoken  12:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * John Mason was also "a member of the Standing Committee on Examinations at the Council for the Indian School Certificate Examinations and author of a number of textbooks published by Oxford University Press". Here are two more sources from Education in India. . Also the Google search terms used in this nomination are inappropriate as the search was done for "John Mason schoolmaster", hence restricting the number of hits. Dahliarose (talk) 13:27, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid being bounced around, from height to dizzy height, in the echo chamber of the Indian press does not constitute notability. Everyone is renowned or legendary, and every campus sprawling and world-class, until you realize it is Calcutta they are talking about, that ugly city, still full of filth, disease, and world-class poverty.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  16:08, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Notability depends on the availability of sources. One would expect notable people to be covered in the national press of the country where they reside. What other sources would you suggest are used? I think your derogatory remarks about Calcutta and the Indian press are quite uncalled for. Dahliarose (talk) 17:07, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Maybe he wants us to rely on the crap that counts as British journalism? I hope not.  If The Times of India or The Hindu say someone is notable, we should not ignore that.--Milowent • hasspoken  19:27, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * (Reply to Dahliarose) Use scholarly books and serious magazines, use feature articles in the better newspapers, but not giddy stories written by impressionable reporters. Doon has also produced many corrupt politicians and bureaucrats, men in power in India whose favors many in the press are thrilling to gain.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  00:56, 17 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep: John Mason has received "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", in which 'significant coverage' means that "sources address the subject directly in detail, so no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material." There are several reliable sources here already, including the Oxford University Press, The Telegraph, and The Times of India. Despite the expression "the echo chamber of the Indian press" (which itself seems to echo around the echo chamber of Fowler&amp;fowler's comments in India-related afds) and the claim that such coverage "does not constitute notability", all news media exist in an "echo chamber", and some publications in every country are respected enough to be treated as reliable. In India those include The Telegraph and The Times of India. Quite apart from all that, whether some editors like it or not, the Doon School is undoubtedly India's most important secondary school, and La Martiniere Calcutta, St James's, and Dubai Modern High School are also leading schools. The fact that they are all fee-paying is not exceptional: nearly all of the world's most notable secondary schools are fee-paying. A man or woman who has headed several important schools is bound to be a leader of his or her profession. The suggestion that education in Calcutta is in some way less notable than education elsewhere, due to its "filth, disease, and world-class poverty", is not based on any sound reasoning. Our policies on notability have nothing to say about such limitations. Moonraker (talk) 19:41, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment Please link to the particular articles or books, rather than to an article about the publisher. That wastes the reader's time trying to search for what you are talking about. Naming a newspaper does not prove notability. Edison (talk) 20:15, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep - Fowler's comments come through a prism of strong bias against the Doon School, which he has demonstrated in the past few weeks. It has sadly become his daily-task to criticize everything related to the Doon School. One can only notice this when he began commenting here for Doon ALumni Featured List candidacy. As for John Mason, he is a well-known academic in India and, obviously, it will be reported by the Indian press not The Washington Post. Fowler seems to equate notability with a mention in Foreign Press. If that is the case, I will have to pull down all the stuff FOwler has contributed to WIkipedia using Indian press references, as it's not reliable according to him. It is now the umpteenth time that Fowler has drifted away from Neutrality and one is only required to read his earlier bias-laden comments. Coming back to the point in case, the article should be kept as Mason is an important academic figure. -- Merlaysamuel : Speechify  20:21, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * As someone who has written a thing or two about India on Wikipedia, including large sections of the FA India, I couldn't be all that bias ridden. Why don't you, all of you bemoaning my bias, go to the Talk:India page and take me on?  As an experienced Wikipedian, I can also smell out a deliberate program to promote one topic on Wikipedia, in this case one school, to the exclusion of every other, to highlight every trivial positive detail, to spin off dozens of related articles, and to whitewash all failings.  As for the Indian press, not long ago, these same editors (Moonraker and Merlaysamuel) were defending an Economics Times (India) report, beginning with, "Back in the 1990s, the Economist (UK) reported  that Doon School had the second-most effective alumni network after Harvard" (or words to that effect).  It turned out that the Economist story was an end-of-the-year, tongue-in-cheek, joke in which Harvard wasn't even mentioned, and in which Doon was listed fifth.  It was eventually removed.  But the damage has been done.  It is now being repeated by every site wanting to promote the school, including the school's own, which, in turn, is being cited in its Wikipedia article.  I won't say much more here.  I will, however, be bringing this up on WP:India, where there are many experienced India hands, most of whom know me to be a rigorous editor.   Fowler&amp;fowler  «Talk»  00:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * As ever, Fowler&amp;fowler writes from memory and invents what he or she wishes to remember. The actual discussion is here. It includes one of Fowler&amp;fowler's many uses of "the echo chamber of the Indian press". Contrary to Fowler&amp;fowler's memory, Merlaysamuel took no part in this discussion at all, and I did not defend the use of "the second-most effective alumni network after Harvard". On the contrary, what I actually said on the matter was "I believe "The Economic Times" is a supplement of The Times of India, which I wouldn't usually question as a reliable source, but the actual citation from The Economist clearly trumps it. Curious that Harvard doesn't even feature in the list "The Economic Times" was recalling.". Can you please stop inventing such falsehoods as your contribution above, Fowler&amp;fowler? Moonraker (talk) 19:10, 20 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep The seminar began with renowned educationist John Mason speaking on the advantages of inclusion. Sounds like a great guy to me.  Seriously, major news sources give him praise, then he must be someone notable.  If reliable sources call him a renowned educationist and legendary teacher then that's enough to prove him notable enough for a Wikipedia article.   D r e a m Focus  23:53, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. The article satisfies the Five Pillars, the core Wikipedia policies. It does not include original research and the content is verifiable in reliable sources. John Mason is the author of four published books, and is a prominent figure in the educational world in India, as testified by the coverage he has received in the Indian national press. This is despite the fact that only recent articles from the last five years or so are accessible online from the Indian newspapers, during which time Mason has been retired. It is also important to counter the Systemic bias on Wikipedia by improving our coverage on people in countries like India. WP:BIO actually redirects to Notability (people). Mason's status as head of two of the most prestigious schools in India and one in Dubai easily satisfies this criterion which states that "The topic of an article should be notable, or "worthy of notice"; that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded". Dahliarose (talk) 13:13, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.