Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Stilley Carpenter


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Tone 14:43, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

John Stilley Carpenter

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This page has been tagged as not meeting Wikipedia's notability guideline for biographies since 2011, and I agree. I think it is time to delete this page. While Carpenter may be an interesting in a genealogical way, he is not noteworthy as leader in the LDS Church (there are hundreds of thousands of Bishop) nor is he noteworthy as a Utah pioneer (there are hundreds of thousands of Utah Pioneers). Unless someone can improve this page quickly it should be deleted. --ARTEST4ECHO (talk/contribs) 16:36, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Utah-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 17:18, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 17:18, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 17:18, 19 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete here is a link to his entry in Andrew Jenson's LDS biographical encyclopedia. Some early bishops functioned as local judges, but I think that had phased out by the time he was bishop. He was head of the Glendale Irrigation Company and on the school board, but considering the size of Glendale, Utah that is not enough. This is not a notable person.John Pack Lambert (talk) 07:02, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * STRONG KEEP - We have an individual of minor historical importance listed in a LDS Biographical Encyclopedia about 1901 or so and again in 1913 in Pioneers and prominent men of Utah. In 2009 he is noted in the O.N.E On-line Nevada Encyclopedia regarding The Muddy Mission. The subject has also been mentioned in Daughters of the Utah Pioneer Magazine a few times (1949 & 1968 and maybe more - it is a hard search). In 2013 an article is posted on line about [John Stilley Carpenter 1849 - 1925] and while this is a secondary type reference, it shows continued interest in the person. In reviewing several genealogical sites, he shows quite a few times, but that is incidental. WP:Bio This person meets the minimal requirements for WP notability. For Wikipedia:Notability (people), the person who is the topic of a biographical article should be "worthy of notice" – that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded. WP:ANYBIO 2.The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field. IE Such as being a pioneer or bishop or both and being historically documented. Please remember certain positions considered today as trivial, must be seen from the historical perspective. The community of Glendale (Berryville) Utah failed on its first attempt. This person helped the re-settlement of Glendale. The irrigation effort was the life-blood of the community and their farming economy. The lack of water (and Navajo conflict) helped cause the first settlement to fail. What the subject did then had an impact today. The same for the school board to a lesser degree. Glendale today is much larger and robust today that when it was first re-settled. Jrcrin001 (talk) 08:44, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep -- The subject meets Wikipedia's guidelines for notability at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Notability_%28people%29, which states: "For Wikipedia:Notability (people), the person who is the topic of a biographical article should be "worthy of notice" – that is, "significant, interesting, or unusual enough to deserve attention or to be recorded" within Wikipedia as a written account of that person's life. "Notable" in the sense of being "famous" or "popular" – although not irrelevant – is secondary." The article has reliable sources per https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RS that provide significant coverage. Why take down a perfectly good article and reduce Wikipedia's span of coverage of people from all walks of life? Cohee (talk) 10:05, 20 February 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep - This nomination seems to smack of recentism, in other words it seems like the complaint is that the Google test doesn't work. I'll also note that comparing the current prominence of an LDS Bishop in the 21st Century is not the same as what it was like in the 19th Century where congregations were much larger in many cases.  In this case you could make a comparison that being a bishop in Glendale was comparable to being mayor at the time in terms of social prominence.  Still, the rationale for notability is more that of a founding settler of a particular town in Utah which most certainly is notable by itself.  The point is that he is an important historical figure for southern Utah, hence notability concerns are met.  I would also suggest that an exhaustive search of available sources has not been done with regards to this individual either. --Robert Horning (talk) 13:06, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * The problem is that at no time has Glendale been a significant enough place that being mayor of it will make a person notable. I will point out the claim "there are hundreds of thousands of bishops" is not fully correct. At present there are just under 30,000 wards and branches, the total number of LDS bishops ever might exceed 100,000, but there were not nearly so many in the 19th-century. Still, we have never agreed that they all merit having an article. Not even all 19th-century stake presidents merit articles, although since many also served as members of territorial legislatures and the like they often do.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:24, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
 * You are missing the point. Just using the LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (about 1901)and Pioneers and prominent men of Utah (1913) did not come to even half of the some 900 or so Bishops estimated to have served from 1848 to 1900. They had to meet more than one criteria to make those books. Rinky Dink town mayor/bishops were not included by themselves. It is the combination of pioneer (twice in this case), bishop, leader and such that made the subject notable in history and documented by others before us. I agree with user Robert Horning above that the article in question is just a stub or start of what might be found on the subject. I have changed by postion from KEEP to STRONG KEEP.  Jrcrin001 (talk) 00:47, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
 * Comment: Only volume 1 of the Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia can legitimately be used to establish notability, as volumes 2 and 3 were at least partially vanity publications, where people could pay for placement of text and pictures. As for Pioneers and Prominent Men of Utah, criteria for inclusion was in part that the person have immigrated to Utah between 24 July 1847 & 30 December 1868, qualifying them as Mormon pioneers; there are many people in this category that are not notable to WP standards. The "Prominent" criteria was only for those that came to Utah after the railroad, which Carpenter did not (came to Utah in 1857). -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 18:10, 5 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 22:06, 2 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep, per Jrcrin001's research and comments (i am not checking, but maybe this was since added to the article; the article might now be in better form than when nominated). Seems interesting/important, and there are multiple sources specifically about him. -- do  ncr  am  23:31, 2 March 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.