Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Tiedtke (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep Since relisting to aloow for examination of the sources, a consensus has emerged that the article should be kept. (non-admin closure) ——  SN  54129  13:22, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

John Tiedtke
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:GNG. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:55, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:55, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions. ...William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 14:55, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. Lightburst (talk) 23:00, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 23:00, 28 February 2020 (UTC)


 * keep appears to be very strong as does .  They feel a bit too positive, but I think both are reliable sources and certainly cover the man in detail. There are a few other, mostly similar, sources. Hobit (talk) 22:05, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * 1 is not a WP:GNG-satisfying source. There is no secondary source content from the author, Steven Brown, Sentinel Classical Music Critic.  The whole article is subject quoting and reformatted information straight from the subject.  That is not independent, as required by the GNG. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:01, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I understand what you're saying, but I'll disagree with that. It's in part an interview, but also the author spoke to others (McKeans for example) and has some actual research of his own. I'm comfortable with it as independent and reliable.  And I've never agreed with the notion that interviews by reliable sources don't count for the GNG.  I know a number of people support that, but WP:GNG doesn't have such a requirement as I read it. Hobit (talk) 05:59, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Can you point to a sentence or two that is secondary source content created by the author? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:11, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Not sure how you are defining secondary source in this context (I think you and I have discussed the various definitions by different academic disciplines in the past), but I'd say the 3rd through 6th paragraph, as well as the 8th ("At age 90..."), 10th, "Tiedtke sits on United Arts' board of trustees with representatives of some of Central Florida's biggest corporations. Yet he notices that these businesses, much larger than his own, give no more to United Arts than he does." "*Tiedtke has been connected to Central Florida in one way or another for almost his entire life. Though he was born in Toledo, Ohio - where his father and uncle were the prosperous owners of a large supermarket and department store - he and his family began spending parts of the winters in Orlando in the early 1920s. The Tiedtkes lived near Colonial Drive and Magnolia Avenue. A family named McKean was among their neighbors - and two of the McKean boys, Hugh and Keith, became young Tiedtke's friends for life. Hugh, who died in 1995, went on to become Rollins' president and a co-founder of the Morse Museum of American Art in Winter Park. Keith, a retired college professor who lives in Winter Park, said the Tiedtke he met 75 years ago was much like the one he knows today."
 * I'd call all that reporting rather than just interview questions and answers. Not sure if that's what you are looking for.  There is a fair bit more than that.  Could you give an example of coverage of a person in a newspaper article that is more like what you feel is required to count as a source? Hobit (talk) 18:07, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, I too call all that reporting, repeating of facts without comment or bias, like photocopying. Photocopying does not turn primary sources information into secondary source information, what is needed is author-source commentary, contextualisation, or any transformation of the primary source material.  At an absolute minimum, I am looking for an author-sourced adjective applied to the subject, which I did not find.  The standard minimum is more like two strung sentences of commentary. Some say 100 words. This source has no commentary, if you exclude the non-independent quotes. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:21, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * As we have in the past, we'll have to agree to disagree. Good news reporting (rather than editorializing), like good academic papers, shouldn't have commentary.  They report the facts.  We want facts, not opinions, in our articles. Requiring a source to have opinions before we can use it to count toward our inclusion guidelines doesn't seem like a standard that's found in WP:N nor one that, IMO, makes sense.  We'd have a hard time writing articles on science things with that requirement. Hobit (talk) 14:24, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Facts are good, but independent secondary sources are what’s required to justify covering the topic. It is a straight reading of WP:N, and it is the policy WP:PSTS that requires some secondary sources no matter how many reports and facts there are. Reports merely repeating facts are not secondary sources. I’d like to keep this topic, but we need evidence (2 sources) that anyone has cared to publish any comment on him.  —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:57, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * 2 March 25, 2016, by Michael McLeod, may be OK. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:08, 21 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Problem with Orlando Magazine and Orlando Sentinel, the former of which still does not have an article, is that they are local media (in particular, this seems to be a problem with the OM). Now, WP:AUD is a guideline for organizations, and I believe there is no consensus to apply it to biographies, but there is also no consensus to ignore it - and IMHO it is something to to consider. A person whose coverage is limited to local (city) media, not even regional, IMHO falls on wrong side of borderline notability. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:24, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I think it is ok to be lenient with local coverage for non commercial topics, and tough for commercial topics. Local businesses use their connections to influence favourable coverage.  Sports should be considered commercial, if connected to ticket sales.  Tiedtke does not at all connected to current commercial interests, and so I don’t think there is reason to suspect non-independence of local coverage. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:47, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Right, but keep in mind the charity-donations-write about our benefactor angle. Now, charity and such can totally make someone notable, but it would be good to see coverage from independent sources that are less likely to be variations of obituaries penned as thanks for the donations during his lifetime. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete. Per my argument above, and an earlier prod (subject fails WP:NBIO as they only have local coverage). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:24, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I know you described your reasoning above, but you've linked to WP:NBIO and indicated that they fail this guideline due to their being only local coverage. As you note, local coverage isn't even mentioned in WP:NBIO.  And secondly, local in this case is 2.1 Million people in the greater Orlando area.I just don't think it's reasonable to claim someone fails a guideline for a reason not listed in that guideline.  I'm fine with an IAR argument (that the guideline *should* say this), and between your two comments I think that's what you are saying.  In any case, there are other sources  itself is a source and lists a few others.  .  But yes, those are also local to the area.  Hobit (talk) 14:04, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Good finds. Sufficient coverage in local sources can be an argument something is on the wrong side of borderline. It's not a simple math. I got interested in 'local' coverage few years back when there was a bio of an architect whose only source was an in-depth biography published in church newsletter. Anyway, since does not seem to be peer reviewed, I am afraid I am still leaning towards delete. If it was, however, published in a peer reviewed outlet, or a non-local paper, I'd be happy to reconsider my vote. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  14:52, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
 * WP:N has no conditions on coverage i.e. local, regional national. Lightburst (talk) 23:43, 28 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - As written, the stub does not contain enough information to satisfy general notability. After four days in AFD, the article has not been expanded per Heymann, indicating that the additional sources are not likely to be out there .  Robert McClenon (talk) 02:51, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Robert McClenon Your supposition about the lack of sources is refuted by facts. Your speculation has been torched.  Heymann is easily surpassed.  7&amp;6=thirteen (☎) 16:46, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.<ol> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li>Wigler, Stephen. (1984-02-19). "John Tiedtke shares good fortune with community" (pages 1 and 2). Orlando Sentinel. Archived from the original (pages 1 and 2) on 2020-02-28. Retrieved 2020-02-28. – via Newspapers.com.</li> <li><li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> <li></li> </ol>
 * Really and truly our inclusion guidelines don't account for the current status of the article... I'd be willing to fix it up, but hate to put work into something that's likely to get deleted. Hobit (talk) 07:13, 27 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree. Editing policy is policy. Furthermore, the current article is a neutral two-sentence stub cited to one reliable source. Cunard (talk) 10:06, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

<ol> <li> The article notes: "John Tiedtke was another important figure in the cultural development of Winter Park. Tiedtke vacationed in Florida with his family in the 1920s. In the 1930s, he was very successful in the state’s sugar industry, and he moved to Winter Park in 1948. The Winter Park Bach Festival was established in 1935. Tiedtke served as president of the event from 1950 until his death in 2004 at the age of 97. “The Bach Festival was started by a very dynamic woman, a Mrs. Sprague-Smith, and she did a great job of creating it and getting it going,” Tiedtke remembered in a 1995 interview. “In 1950, she died suddenly. I was on the board, and nobody else on the board wanted the responsibility of trying to run it and keep it going, so I finally agreed to do it. Then, for two or three years, Hugh McKean, the president of Rollins, and I kept trying to find somebody to run it, and we couldn’t. He finally suggested that I just take the title of president because I’d been running it anyway.”"</li> <li> The article notes: "That sort of commitment is beyond most of us. But John Tiedtke's example will be before us again as of Thursday, when the 63rd annual Bach Festival of Winter Park begins. Since 1950, Tiedtke has been the festival's leader - not only running it but helping foot the bill for it. He has pitched in with a variety of the area's other cultural groups too. He has served Rollins College in several capacities, including a 20-year stint as its treasurer. He has helped support the Enzian Cinema Cafe in Maitland - which his daughter, Tina, founded. He has given $100,000 a year to United Arts of Central Florida since it was founded in 1988. Tiedtke's real business is a group of sugar, citrus and corn farms near Lake Okeechobee. He has done everything else as a sideline."</li> <li> The article notes: "The arts in Central Florida lost a giant on Tuesday. John M. Tiedtke, local businessman, philanthropist and tireless patron of the arts, died at 97. ... Tiedtke was born Sept. 15, 1907, in Toledo, Ohio, into a wealthy family -- they owned a supermarket and department store in Toledo. He created even more wealth by investing in sugar, citrus and corn farms on land near Lake Okeechobee. Land companies, development companies, Shawnee Cattle and Atlas Sugar were among his holdings. But it was what he did with that wealth that has had so much impact. He spent millions bringing great music, film and art to his adopted home -- Central Florida."</li> <li> The article ntoes: "Enzian owes its existence to John Tiedtke, whose family owned a prosperous department store in Toledo, Ohio, and had a winter home in Orlando at the corner of Hillcrest Street and Magnolia Avenue. Tiedtke made Winter Park his permanent home as an adult, tending to the family’s investments in South Florida farmland and becoming a savior to nearly every arts organization in town, including the Bach Festival, Florida Symphony Orchestra, Orlando Museum of Art, Orlando Opera, and Festival of Orchestras—all that besides being a founder/funder of United Arts of Central Florida. Tiedtke’s love of the arts drew him close to people of similar tastes. His best friend from boyhood on was another hugely influential Central Florida arts philanthropist and cultural advocate, Rollins College president and Morse Museum co-founder Hugh McKean, who saved priceless Tiffany stained-glass windows from the wrecking ball. And Tiedtke’s wife was a woman who was raised alongside the Danube, in the City of Music, home to Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert. Her name was Sylvia Southard. She was a princess and a survivor. ... Sylvia met John Tiedtke after the war, while visiting relatives in Winter Park. They married in 1948 and had two children, Philip and Tina, with whom they would summer in the family castle, where one of Sylvia’s favorite activities was taking the children hiking up through the mountain passes, enjoying the wild Alpine flowers they saw along the way. Among them was a rare, velvety blue, trumpet-shaped bloom called enzian. In 1985, when Tina Tiedtke took up the cause of creating an alternative art movie house for Orlando, the seed money for the enterprise came from her art-loving father, while its name owed its inspiration to the rarest of the flowers she’d seen on those mountain treks with her mother."</li> <li>Wigler, Stephen. (1984-02-19). "John Tiedtke shares good fortune with community" (pages 1 and 2). Orlando Sentinel. Archived from the original (pages 1 and 2) on 2020-02-28. Retrieved 2020-02-28. – via Newspapers.com. The article notes: "He bought more and more municipal bonds. By the time Florida's economy began to revive, in 1938, John Tiedtke had made a fortune of his own. He went on to make — and continues to make — an even greater fortune in the Everglades in the sugar business. ... For as little as $10 an acre, sometimes for as little as unpaid back taxes, Tiedtke bought several hundred acres in the Everglads and began cultivating sugar. The business is called Shawnee Farms and now consists of vast tracts of land cultivated in sugar cane. ... When Tiedtke wasn't spending his time on his Everglads plantations, he was living in Winter Park, and there his association with Rollins College began. During the spring semesters, he taught photography classes. By the 1940s, he began teaching business courses. He still goes every day to a rented office on the Rollins campus where he spends time working on his farms' business, on his own investments and on the business of the arts in Central Florida."</li> <li> The article notes: "By the time Sinclair arrived, the society and its annual festival had for decades been the personal domain of Tiedtke, a shrewd businessman who had made his fortune growing sugar, citrus and corn in South Florida. McKean had asked his boyhood friend to take charge in 1950, when founding society President Isabelle Sprague-Smith died and the organization’s future seemed in doubt. The no-nonsense Tiedtke proved a fortuitous choice. He loved music — he played a little piano, but mostly enjoyed listening ---— and was a consistent and generous donor to community-based arts organizations. At Rollins, he had been treasurer and chairman of the board of trustees. ... Tiedtke died the following year at 97, and to the end was cajoling Central Florida businesspeople to do their civic duty and give more to the arts. In fact, Sinclair’s continued presence in Winter Park can be counted among the plain-spoken philanthropist’s many legacies. Just before Tiedtke’s death, Rollins established the John M. Tiedtke Endowed Chair of Music. For once, the man for whom the chair was named wasn’t asked to write a check. Others contributed generously, including an anonymous $250,000 donation that was later revealed to have come from one Fred McFeely Rogers, Class of ’51, a music composition major who became TV’s Mister Rogers and befriended the Sinclairs during his frequent Winter Park visits."</li> <li> The article notes: "John Tiedtke, treasurer and vice-president of Rollins College is doing some diversified farming at his Shawnee Farm just over the line in Glades County, a few miles from here. When Tiedtke bought the property about 1937 it was with the intention of raising sugar cane. This he has done successfully and this year will produce about 1,500 acres of it. Then he began to grow lettuce, built a packing house to handle the crop. It was the lettuce that helped him get in the cattle business, according to his manager, Otto Larson. Disposal of the waste from the packing house posed something of a problem so Tiedtke bought a few cattle to feed. And three years ago he went into the cow business seriously."</li> <li> The article notes: "Junior Achievement, in its annual recognition of Orlando-area business leaders, will also induct three people into its Mid-Florida Business Hall of Fame: ... John Tiedtke, head of the Bach Festival in Winter Park and a sugar-cane industry executive. ... John Tiedtke. As president of Eastgate Farms and Shawnee Farms, two sugar-cane plantations near Lake Okeechobee, Tiedtke has left his mark on the South Florida industry. But it has been his passion for the arts, rather than his ardor for agriculture, that brought him to prominence in Central Florida. Back in 1949, Tiedtke breathed life into the Florida Symphony Orchestra and continued to support the group until its end in 1993. More notably, he has headed the Bach Festival of Winter Park for more than 50 years."</li> <li> The article notes: "Rollins College trustee John Meyer Tiedtke is one of eight distinguished Floridians to receive 'C.H.I.E.F.' awards as 'Champions of Higher Independent Education in Florida' at the annual Independent Colleges and Universities of Florida (ICUF) banquet, to be held at Walt Disney World's Contemporary Hotel, Thursday. ... Tiedtke was born in Toledo Ohio and attended Culver Military Academy. He received his AB degree from Dartmouth College and an MCS degree from the Dartmouth Amos Tuck School of Business Administration."</li> <li> The article notes: "Announcement is made by Prince and Princess Alfred Hohenlohe, Stainach, Austria, of the engagement of Princess Hohenlohe's daughter, Sylvia Southard, to John Tiedtke, son of Mr. and Mrs. Ernest Tiedtke, Dorr St., Toledo, Ohio."</li> <li> The article notes: "Of wide social interest in the North is the marriage of Miss Sylvia Maria Southard of Toledo O., to John M. Tiedtke of Toledo and Orlando, which took place Saturday afternoon in the chapel of Collingwood Presbyterian Church, Toledo. Dr. R. Lincoln Long officiated before an altar banked with woodwardia ferns, white chrysanthemums and pompoms. The immediate families were present."</li> <li> The article notes: "Individuals honored by the governor have also donated years of energies to initiating and perpetuating fine arts as paragons of tradition. John Tiedtke of Winter Park has been president of the 38-year active Bach Festival Society, America's second oldest commemoration of the master's music. Active in founding the Florida Symphony Orchestra of which he has served on the board since its inception, Tiedtke was founding director of Channel 24, Central Florida's Educational Television Station, and the Central Florida Council of Arts and Sciences."</li> <li> The article notes: "Some were lucky enough to join McKean and his childhood friend John Tiedtke for one of the duo’s legendary lunches. Tiedtke, a wealthy sugar cane grower, also headed the Bach Festival Society of Winter Park and was a past professor, dean, treasurer and vice president of Rollins College, which McKean led as president from 1951 to 1969. ... The intelligence assignment was likely a result of his travel abroad; he and Tiedtke had traipsed across Europe together in 1936, ostensibly to tour the continent’s great museums and concert halls. The navy’s intelligence units were actively seeking Americans who had spent time overseas."</li> <li> The article notes: "With 1,500 crates per day passing through the packing plants, lettuce harvesting on the 520-acre tract of Shawnee farms near here is now in full swing. Owned by John Tiedtke, Shawnee farms is experiencing its most successful lettuce season this year."</li> <li> The article notes: "John M. Tiedtke was born on September 15, 1907 in Toledo, Ohio. His father, Ernest Tiedtke owned a grocery store. As a young man he attended the Culver Military Academy. From 1920 to 1921 John Tiedtke studied music at Rollins College and in 1926 he attended Dartmouth College where he received an Artium Baccalaureatus Degree in 1930. He was a member of the Sigma Nu fraternity. He furthered his education by attending Dartmouth’s Amos Tuck School of Business administration, and graduated with an M.C.S Degree in 1932. He then worked for two years as an accountant at the firm of Widemen and Madden in Toledo. After the Great Depression struck America, Tiedtke moved to Florida to assist his uncle’s business.[1] ... When John M. Tiedtke wasn’t working, he spent much of his leisure time playing tennis or pursing his musical interests. He was a founding member of the Florida Symphony Orchestra. He made generous donations to both the Rollins College Music and Theater Departments. Tiedtke’s most notable contribution to the arts was his involvement in the Bach Festival. Since1950 he had served as the president of the Bach Festival and turned the program into the high quality performances that it is today.[3]"</li> </ol>

There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow John Tiedtke to pass Notability, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". Cunard (talk) 10:06, 28 February 2020 (UTC)</li></ul>
 * John Tiedtke has received significant coverage in reliable sources in the Orlando Sentinel in 1984, 1998, and 2004. He received significant coverage in Winter Park Magazine in 2015 and in Orlando Magazine in 2016. Florida Today said Tiedtke "was another important figure in the cultural development of Winter Park" who "was very successful in the state’s sugar industry". The Orlando Magazine noted that Tiedtke was "a savior to nearly every arts organization in town, including the Bach Festival, Florida Symphony Orchestra, Orlando Museum of Art, Orlando Opera, and Festival of Orchestras—all that besides being a founder/funder of United Arts of Central Florida". The Orlando Sentinel said, "The arts in Central Florida lost a giant on Tuesday. John M. Tiedtke, local businessman, philanthropist and tireless patron of the arts, died at 97. ... Tiedtke was born Sept. 15, 1907, in Toledo, Ohio, into a wealthy family -- they owned a supermarket and department store Tiedtke's in Toledo. He created even more wealth by investing in sugar, citrus and corn farms on land near Lake Okeechobee. Land companies, development companies, Shawnee Cattle and Atlas Sugar were among his holdings. But it was what he did with that wealth that has had so much impact. He spent millions bringing great music, film and art to his adopted home -- Central Florida." Tiedtke was a professor at Rollins College which established the John M. Tiedtke Endowed Chair of Music. The chair was funded in part by an anonymous $250,000 donation from Fred Rogers who is TV's Mister Rogers. He married Princess Sylvia Southard, the daughter of Prince Alfred of Hohenlohe-Langenburg in Stainach, Austria (the son of Ernst II, Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg) this is wrong because the Prince Alfred who was the son of Ernst II, Prince of Hohenlohe-Langenburg was born in and died in 1911. Revised at 08:46, 2 March 2020 (UTC). He made his fortune from Eastgate Farms and Shawnee Farms, two sugar-cane plantations near Lake Okeechobee. In 1972, he was one of eight Floridians to receive a "C.H.I.E.F." award ("Champions of Higher Independent Education in Florida") from the Independent Colleges and Universities of Florida. In 1973, Florida Governor Reubin Askew gave him one of the "Governor's Awards for the Arts". Tiedtke was the founding director of Channel 24 (now WUCF-TV). Cunard (talk) 10:06, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Notability (people) does not require non-local coverage. Furthermore, the Orlando Sentinel is a major regional newspaper, not a small local newspaper. Even WP:AUD (Notability (organizations and companies)) (which applies to companies, not people) says that "Evidence of significant coverage by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability." WP:AUD says that even regional media is a "strong indication of notability". That Tiedtke was the subject of multiple articles in the regional newspaper Orlando Sentinel over a period of decades (1984, 1998, and 2004) strongly establishes he is notable. Cunard (talk) 10:06, 28 February 2020 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: Relisting to allow time for review of the sources found by today.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- RoySmith (talk) 21:18, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Some great work by Cunard. I will see if someone is inclined to start adding to the article. Lightburst (talk) 23:00, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
 * KEEP Cunard makes a convincing case for notability of this person.  D r e a m Focus  23:56, 29 February 2020 (UTC)
 * I WISH that User:Cunard would heed some of the advice in WP:THREE. The length and detail of his source listing is impressive, but often on examination the coverage is too thin, and he may be considered to have a reputation for attempted baboozling of discussion by WP:Reference bombing. Did Cunard read anything he wrote (or was it machine produced). Did anyone else?  Can they point to the two-or-three *best* sources for demonstrating that others have published coverage of the subject?  —SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:18, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment SmokeyJoe If you had actually read the sources cited in this article, you would realize your comments are unfounded. Indeed, other editors would apologize and graciously admit they were wrong. And that this discussion is a waste of valuable editors' time. <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 16:33, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * I read enough to come to a conclusion to !vote “keep” and stopped there. Is that not good enough. I do not agree that my comments were unfounded.  —SmokeyJoe (talk) 16:44, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * SmokeyJoe You are right. I was wrong and apologize.  Too many notes.  <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 17:30, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your great work on the article, and !, I read everything I write. Nothing is machine produced, which I wish were possible because it would save me a significant amount of time. For Google Books and Newspapers.com sources, I manually type the text included in my quotes. I try to provide nearly all of the useful reliable sources I have found in the hopes that if I don't have the time to work on the article, another editor will be able to use those sources to expand the article (as I responded to 7&6=thirteen's message here). I am very grateful to 7&6=thirteen and StrayBolt for their work on the article. Regarding WP:THREE, I generally list the strongest sources I have found at the beginning of my list of sources. Cunard (talk) 08:46, 2 March 2020 (UTC)
 * User:Cunard, ok, thanks, great. I’m impressed, it would exhaust me.  I think in the past I’ve seen you list less impressive sources.  If the best are at the top that’s great.  I was apprehensive when I saw the list to review, and “delete” means that virtually everyone is to be faulted.  Like I said, this time, I had only read the top few before I saw that this was a “keep”.  I also note that you find things that my searches did not.  Do you have special access to paywalled sources?  —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:59, 2 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. Gut feel, from reading Cunard sources.  All of them feel questionably non-independent, but not offensively so, especially there being no hint of self promotion of himself through these sources.  Some of them casually report his passing. There is more than enough secondary source coverage, reliable source coverage, and significant or depth of coverage.  Tiedtke should be included.  —SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:26, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Meets WP:GNG No compliance with WP:Before.  Nominator chose to disregard available sources.  Referencing can and should be has improved, but the sources exist and are cited.  So this article is not what it was when repeatedly nominated for deletion, and now should be is easily surpasses up to WP:HEY standard. Clearly an important philanthropist.  <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 13:27, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep or merge into Tiedtke's, per WP:BEFORE (part C). Pburka (talk) 14:23, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep Thanks to User:Cunard references and User:7&amp;6=thirteen improvements, passes WP:GNG. I was initially looking to see if he held a named chair while being a professor, but there now is a chair named after him. Will try to add a few more refs. StrayBolt (talk) 17:18, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep, the concerns being that language in the current version appears to be a close paraphrase from the obituary, and the last sentence of the lede paragraph is hagiographic, but biographical notability has been satisfied. I expect an apology from User:7&6=thirteen for their incivility, similar to the one already provided to User:SmokeyJoe.  Like SmokeyJoe, I have no apology for my previous !vote, which was reasonable, and did not warrant an insult.  7+6 could simply have pinged me and asked me to change my !vote -- which I have done anyway.  Robert McClenon (talk) 18:33, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Thanks for changing your vote. Reasonable minds may differ on voting history.  Hopefully we can all learn for the future.  Next time I'll ping you. In any event, apology extended.  We are all volunteers and working in common cause.  <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 18:39, 1 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep. Any argument invoking local coverage is bunk (it's Orlando, Florida, not Orlando, Oklahoma, and should we disregard The New York Times coverage of prominent New Yorkers?). WP:BASIC states "If the depth of coverage in any given source is not substantial, then multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability". Coverage in multiple independent sources exist. The essay WP:ITSLOCAL discourages the argument that local coverage is a valid reason for deletion.  Note that coverage also exists in a Toledo Blade obituary .  The article can and should be improved with a tone more removed from the laudatory nature of some obituaries, but Articles for Deletion is not Articles for Improvement. --Animalparty! (talk) 20:33, 1 March 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you. Your criticism of the laudatory tone is understood.  The problem is that his life, its purpose, arc and direction, and the reporting of it, are set into that frame.  WP:Peacock really doesn't apply.  Trimming out that material is a mischaracterization by omission; and it plays into the hands of those editors who want to excise material because it doesn't extensively mention him.  <b style="color:#060">7&amp;6=thirteen</b> (<b style="color:#000">☎</b>) 20:54, 1 March 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep The User:Cunard makes it clear. <b style="color:#00BFFF">An@ss_koko</b><sup style="color:#7F007F">(speak) <sup style="color:#7F007F">(war)  21:21, 2 March 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. <b style="color:red">Please do not modify it.</b> Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.