Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Wesley Cockburn


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Its sources that matter not assertion. Delete side debunked sourcee. Keep side claimed they existed but failed to substantiate this when challenged before going off in to opinion and assertion. Spartaz Humbug! 05:59, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

John Wesley Cockburn

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Inadequately sourced biography of a person with no strong claim to passage of any Wikipedia inclusion criterion. His main notability claim is serving on the city council of a city that is not large enough to hand its city councillors an automatic pass of WP:NPOL #2 just for existing, but the sourcing here (one single biographical blurb on the website of the local historical society) is not enough to make him a special case over and above most other non-notable city councillors. And his work as an engineer doesn't suggest any reason why he could be considered notable for that, either -- none of this is "inherently" notable enough to exempt him from having to be referenced well enough to clear WP:GNG. Bearcat (talk) 21:19, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 21:52, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Manitoba-related deletion discussions. Bearcat (talk) 21:52, 12 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete - Per nomination reason--VP (talk) 22:33, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Comment by original contributor  He's as least as notable as any of the army of baseball players and barber shop quartet members that fill our virtual pages. There's no deadline, and I haven't even had time to head down to the library and check out a real paper book or two that would give some additional biographical information. I think a city councillor who displays the civic-mindedness to secure valuable rights for hydroelectric development and then *turn them over* to the city when they amend the charer to allow it, is a notable occurrence.  More politicians should be so civic-minded. Founding an electrical utility was notable, even as late as 1906, and Cockburn's actions were critical in securing public power development in Manitoba.  We've got dozens of obscure parliamentarians who are so un-notable we're not even sure when they were born or died.  Cockburn at least has printed sources in English to back up his existence and contributions.  --Wtshymanski (talk) 22:35, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep – Here are three books sources, which would seem to be enough to establish notability. Dicklyon (talk) 22:46, 12 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The test for GNG is not "sources exist in which his name appears on one page" — it is "sources exist which are substantively about him". None of those books meet the necessary standard; they all just namecheck his existence a single time on a single page and then cease to be about him otherwise. Bearcat (talk) 16:32, 13 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep: Per Wtshymanski. clearly meets our notability criteria. The article should be expanded, not deleted. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:08, 13 May 2018 (UTC) Withdrawn. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:31, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete Unlike the keep votes above, I have no idea how the notability criteria are satisfied. The book search that "should be enough to establish notability" brings up three books in which he is mentioned only in footnotes or in passing. A "before" search only brings up the fact he founded the electric company, typically as "Led by alderman John Wesley Cockburn,". Yes, "printed sources in English" exist to show he existed as the alderman of Winnipeg and founded an electric company, but this is not the test for WP:GNG. If the original contributor believes a further contribution is possible to get this past WP:GNG I'd be happy for a draftify as historic sources may show WP:GNG, but as it stands, there's not enough source material to make a full-fledged article. SportingFlyer  talk  06:06, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep has received substantial coverage in reliable ibdependent sources. The Winnipeg Historical Society maintains an entry on him. And in addition to the books noted above he's also documented in:
 * Who’s Who in Western Canada: A Biographical Dictionary of Notable Living Men and Women of Western Canada, Volume 1, edited by C. W. Parker, Vancouver: Canadian Press Association, 1911.
 * “Former Controller J. W. Cockburn Dead” Newspaper clipping. [Manitoba Legislative Library, Biographical Scrapbook B8, page 27]
 * Manitoba Legislative Library, Biographical Scrapbook B8, page 27, Obituary - J. W. Cockburn

He's not a huge figure in history but he made an impact on Winnipeg through his power plant involvement, as an alderman for many years, and as an influential merchant. A street is named for him. Just last year he was noted in a newspaper article. FloridaArmy (talk) 14:17, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Could you please post the paragraphs where he was mentioned in those books and a link to where the Winnipeg Historical Society mentions him? I want to verify your "substantial coverage" claim. -- Guy Macon (talk) 22:26, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Everybody who ever served on the city council of any city at all could always show an obituary from the local newspaper on the occasion of their death and a file in the archives of the local historical society, so those are not evidence of encyclopedic notability per se. Press coverage would have to start showing up outside of Winnipeg, like in The Globe and Mail or the Toronto Star, before serving on Winnipeg's city council started to constitute a notability claim in and of itself. GNG is not just "the number of available sources surpasses one" — it takes into account factors like the coverage's volume, depth and geographic range, and how strong the basic notability claim is in the first place. That is, for a member of the Canadian House of Commons, one source that confirmed that he held the claimed role would be enough to make the article keepable even if it still needs far more than that before it can be considered good — but for a city councillor, in a city where city councillors are not automatically presumed notable just for existing, it takes a lot more sourcing than has been shown here before GNG is actually passed. Bearcat (talk) 23:10, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Winnipeg was the third largest city in Canada when Cockburn fathered its public utility and acted to establish to oldest continuously operating power plant in the province of Manitoba, Canada. His many years as an Alderman and hia role as an important merchant in the city further establish his notability. Winnipeg is the capital city of Manitoba so its daily paper isn't any more local than the New York Times. I suspect the paper in Manitoba doesn't cover the mayor of New York City that often but it doesn't make DeBlasio any less notable. Here's one of the sources requested. The historical society source is already cited. There's plenty of coverage of this guy wven today in regard to the power plant he helped establish as it continues in operation, [ https://www.hydroworld.com/articles/hr/print/volume-35/issue-7/articles/75-mw-pointe-du-bois-powering-canada-since-1911.html see here] noted in 2016. Certainly seems.like lasting notability to me. FloridaArmy (talk) 00:03, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia's inclusion criteria for city councillors is not based on where the city ranks among cities in its own country — it's based on where the city ranks worldwide. Only alpha or beta class global cities, such as New York City or Chicago or Toronto or London, get an automatic entitlement to have all their city councillors presumed notable under NPOL #2 just for existing — in any other city outside that class, city councillors are accepted as notable only if the depth and range and volume of sourceability marks them out as a special case over and above most other city councillors. But you are not showing the depth and range and volume of sourceability that it takes — an obituary in the local newspaper and a file in the local historical society archives are sources which can quite routinely be simply expected to exist for every city councillor everywhere, regardless of whether they clear our notability standards for city councillors or not. And since every city has public utilities of some description, every city will have had somebody (or several somebodies) who can claim to have been the founder(s) of those things — so founding a public utility in his city is still not an inclusion freebie for a city councillor that would exempt him from having to be sourced much better than this. Also, HydroWorld is not a reliable or notability-supporting source, and that article isn't about Cockburn, it just namechecks his existence briefly in the process of being about something else. Bearcat (talk) 17:19, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
 * WP:GNG says: "Significant coverage" addresses the topic directly and in detail. The sources you've mentioned don't do that: one is a directory of many people, the other mentions him for a sentence or two. The sources are not there. They could be, but they wouldn't be online, which is why I would support a draftify if they might exist. SportingFlyer  talk  21:24, 15 May 2018 (UTC)


 * Delete- as per nom, doesn't pass WP:NPOL and there just is enough sourcing to go on for any other way of making him notable. Just because his name is mentioned one time in a book, does not mean anything.--Rusf10 (talk) 03:18, 16 May 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete- The article informs us that he operated a general store and grocery in Winnipeg and served as a city alderman for a single year. And that's it. I'm probably missing something in this debate, but what exactly is notable about him? And if there is something, why isn't it mentioned in the article?Pupsbunch (talk) 21:37, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
 * He served as the city's alderman for 7 years, founded the province's firdt public utility, and the power plant he bought the land for is still in operation, the oldest in the province. All noted in the article and the cited sources covering him and his accomplishments. FloridaArmy (talk) 21:44, 19 May 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.