Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jon Mamoru Takagi


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was speedy keep per WP:SK. The nominator changed their delete nomination to "Very Weak Keep" at the bottom of the discussion, essentially withdrawing the nomination, and no outstanding delete !votes are present. (non-admin closure) NorthAmerica1000 01:16, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Jon Mamoru Takagi

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Lacks significant coverage from independent sources. Also lacks notability--opening the first aikido studio in Arizona is not enough to show notability nor does his rank. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdtemp (talk • contribs) 20:29, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Although I'm still not convinced of his notability, I have changed my vote (see my final comment below).Mdtemp (talk) 15:46, 13 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Peter Rehse (talk) 21:01, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for reviewing this article! I will post some of these issues on the page's Talk page to clarify. - I am currently actively researching this individual and will add more information as I can substantiate it. However, since he died quite a while before the Internet, it is difficult to track down true original sources. This is an ongoing process, and the "start-class" wikipedia page has already attracted attention and led me to new sources.

Comments on Notability Joe Shuri (talk) 22:07, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * 45 years ago, Takagi opened what was probably the first aikido dojo in the western United States outside of California. It was also one of the first full-time, free standing dedicated aikido dojos in the U.S. (as opposed to rented space at a gym or as a college class).
 * Takagi was known as a charismatic and exceptionally talented pioneer of aikido, and was significantly involved in spreading and advocating aikido in the U.S. He was a central figure in the founding of the current American aikido organizations: Ki Society (1974), USAF (United States Aikido Federation, 1976), AAA (Aikido Association of America, 1984), and ASU (Aikido Schools of Ueshiba). Having achieved 6th dan in 1984, Takagi was a peer (and good friend) of the current leaders of those organizations, and also the large and influential CAA (California Aikido Association).
 * When Koichi Tohei (aikido's only 10th dan) demonstrated aikido for American publications and audiences in the 1970s, he chose Takagi as his demonstration partner on a number of occasions. Takagi appears with him in several of his most famous early photos as his "uke" and demonstration assistant (see links on article page).
 * The current leaders (2014) of the main U.S. aikido organizations are 7th and 8th dan (aikido ranks seldom reach higher, as you may be accustomed to seeing in other martial arts). Had Takagi not been killed in an accident at age 41 (at 6th dan), he would possibly be one of the highest ranking aikido practitioners, and based on his actions in life, likely a leader or central figure in today's aikido. Takagi was truly a pioneer in this country, having started aikido study in 1958.
 * To summarize, Takagi's name is well known and respected 30 years after his death, particularly in West Coast aikido. This article began when other instructors pointed out that his legacy and impact may soon be forgotten, since his peers, leading the organizations he helped found, are now in their 70s. Being on the East Coast, it has been difficult to source original documentation, and much of what I have written here comes from first-hand information related to me by head instructors around the U.S. As I am able to substantiate with external sources, I will certainly add them. There is little debate as to Takagi's notability within the aikido community, however, documenting it is on ongoing project.
 * Please feel free to contact me directly for more information or to help improve this page!

I would also point out that this brand new article looks like it is currently receiving about as much traffic as Fumio Toyoda (another deceased U.S. aikido instructor and leader with unquestionable notability) and several others, e.g. Frank Doran and David Shaner, current leaders of key East Coast and West Coast aikido organizations and two of the senior American aikido instructors (both 7th dan). I feel that the history of aikido in the United States is currently poorly documented and that a number of the key early (and current) figures are not documented in Wikipedia; this page is a step to rectify that. Thanks! Joe Shuri (talk) 22:24, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I know nothing about aikido, but I know a little about Wikipedia. The problem with this article is the lack of significant coverage in independent sources, which is what WP:GNG requires.  There's little documented evidence to support the claims or the claims are irrelevant.  Examples: probably the first aikido dojo in the western U.S. outside of California, was a good friend of people who now head major aikido organizations, would be a high rank had he lived, was used as a uke by Tohei.  These don't really show notability, they fall more under WP:NOTINHERITED. My google search turned up nothing.  No objection if you want to move this article to your sandbox and keep working on it, but right now I don't see any evidence that he meets WP:GNG or WP:MANOTE.  If you can provide some then I'll change my opinion, but right now I don't think he's notable.Mdtemp (talk) 20:06, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Arizona-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:04, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 13:04, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Obviously, I am a new user on Wikipedia, but I have been practicing and been involved in the "politics" of aikido for more than 30 years. I feel that the history of aikido in the U.S. is poorly documented on Wikipedia, and with this article and a few others, I'm trying to rectify that.


 * I was not trying to establish Takagi's notability as a "good friend" of the senior instructors. As I stated, he was a central and active figure in the creation of many of them, including as a co-founder of AAA as documented in source #5 on his page.
 * He was already one of the few highest ranking instructors in the U.S. during his life; again, you may be used to seeing higher ranks in other arts, but I mentioned the current ranks as an example of how slowly senior practitioners are granted rank in aikido. He was 6th dan 30 years ago, when aikido was much smaller in the U.S. Today, when aikido is many, many times as large, the current leadership of most organizations is 7th dan. There were very few senior aikidoka in the U.S. in the 1970s, and almost none outside of the schools founded by the Japanese aikido headquarters.
 * The fact that Takagi's notability is well established in the oral and written history of aikido cannot be referenced in wikipedia, and I will continue to rectify that. His death decades before the internet, and the dearth of information currently available online, is exactly why this page should exist.
 * You will find few martial arts schools of any kind that have been in continuous operation since 1968, certainly only a small handful in aikido. Takagi's school was not only the first in the western U.S., he brought aikido to the western U.S. through his extensive travels and advocacy throughout the Rocky Mountain states. I cannot document that yet through published works from the 1970s, but verbally, he is well known for reaching out throughout many western states to help establish aikido where it never existed before. I have received several contacts by having this page available who are helping me document this - but at a slow pace, since this is no-one's top priority (and not my own, either).
 * Takagi was Tohei's partner in magazine articles and in public because he was a central figure as I described above, not by chance or friendship.

My inexperience with Wikipedia is probably preventing me from making my arguments well here. I have not read every page of the references and can't keep up with an expert like you.Most aikido organizations are non-profit; many instructors are not paid; as it is non-competitive (in most forms), you will not find extensive "sports" coverage of it (as with MMA). As a very traditional style, there is simply not the same level of coverage readily available as in other more flashy "for-profit" martial arts. However, there are many thousands of practitioners, and much interest in it, and I think that Wikipedia is a great forum for that. I cannot spend a lot of time on Wikipedia "defending" this, so if you are intent on keeping this from getting off the ground, you'll have successfully stopped my initial foray at documenting the pre-internet history of Aikido, which is currently mostly verbal. If that's your goal, I don't have the time to spend resisting it. I know your work is not personal, but I think that keeping this page out does the aikido community a disservice.
 * Keep Wow that certainly is a lot of text but the main point is that unlike professional fighters there tends to be far less press coverage for traditional martial arts like aikido and the fact that there is some (and the subject is not a BLP) is a positive thing.  I believe the subject meets WP:GNG and the article does make a case for notability in US Aikido world.Peter Rehse (talk) 10:28, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Can you please tell me where you see significant independent coverage? I would love to make Joe happy and keep this article.  I don't want to squash the enthusiasm of a newbie.Mdtemp (talk) 19:24, 11 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Userfy While I certainly appreciate the passion displayed by the author, the fact remains that the article lacks the coverage required by WP:GNG. This has always been a problem with martial arts articles, but that doesn't change the fact that, as it now stands, I don't believe the article shows notability.  My google search turned up nothing supporting notability nor did I find him mentioned when I searched martial arts magazines .  I'd prefer putting this article into the author's sandbox until he can improve the sources, as opposed to getting rid of it, but I don't think this article is ready for mainspace yet. Papaursa (talk) 20:49, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep Although I haven't seen the articles, I am willing to take KendoSnowman's word on it. Papaursa (talk) 03:06, 13 March 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep Notability follows guidelines in WikiProject Martial arts. Independent sources: double full-page, article with large pictures in Arizona Republic (largest mainstream newspaper in Arizona) was unprecedented for a martial art in 1973. Co-founder of a major national aikido organization per article in the main U.S. aikido journal. Six photos + text in national martial arts magazine listed. Lack of google-ability is to be expected -you won't find anything online on someone who died in 1984, it's all in print and still being dug out of old boxes. Thanks to all for taking notice and for the constructive help. (disclosure: I started this article, but I know Joe Shuri in the real world)KendoSnowman (talk) 01:55, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
 * I would consider that link to the Aikido Journal to be a passing mention. However, I am willing to change my vote to Very Weak Keep.  I'm still not convinced, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.Mdtemp (talk)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.