Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jonas Kyratzes


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. T. Canens (talk) 08:15, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Jonas Kyratzes
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log )

Fails WP:BIO, there's one ref (JayIsGames) which is ARGUABLY an WP:RS (although I'd disagree), but it only treats his game, not him, i.e., it does not go into non-trivial detail of his person. The rest of the links go to his website or content created by him on other websites (i.e., Youtube). Filibusti (talk) 08:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Strong keep.       Five minutes of searching. And a strong recommendation that the nominator, before nominating yet another indie video game developer, actually contact the editors involved with concerns related to the article instead of jumping straight to the AfD process. Not every problem is fixed with a vote. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:46, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Some of those are not reliable sources, the others do not go into non-trivial detail of Kyratzes. In fact, those mentions are all extremely trivial. Filibusti (talk) 08:53, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * How did you verify their reliability? Did you check the reliable sources Wikipedia page for video games, located here? Or did you merely assume that they were not reliable? The Guardian specifically included him in a showcase of independent developers; by the nature of the article, this demonstrates notability - inclusion in such an article from The Guardian, of all sources, is not trivial whatsoever. The Just Adventure interview (Just Adventure is a reliable source, just to let you know) is obviously non-trivial. Escapist Magazine, another reliable source, makes specific note of a comment that he made on video games. Uncommon for a non-notable person to be mentioned in that context. Just Adventure, again, mentions him, discussing his development style and the sort. Did you even read the links or attempt to verify their reliability? If you are going to so easily dismiss such effort, then I would not recommend that you participate in any improvement of anything related to independent video game development. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 09:09, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

One of his works, The Museum of Broken Memories, has also been nominated for deletion.  D r e a m Focus  01:03, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep - The article nomination is in good faith, and the arguments for deletion are valid. However, I'd take a step back and ask whether this guy has achieved enough in his professional work to rate a mention in a technology-driven encyclopedia... yes, he has. - Richard Cavell (talk) 10:10, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Games-related deletion discussions.  -- Danger (talk) 11:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions.  -- Danger (talk) 11:36, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep after implementing the sources that Retro Hippie found. Blake (Talk·Edits) 14:24, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Lots of good sources and certainly enough for notability.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 15:21, 3 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep as per New Age.   Takeo  20:22, 5 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Reliable sources mentioning the guy have been found.  D r e a m Focus  01:03, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Note: The article under discussion here has been rescue flagged by an editor for review by the Article Rescue Squadron.  Yaksar (let's chat) 07:17, 6 March 2011 (UTC)


 * delete I found it very surprising that this person has been getting such a strong consensus to keep. I read the article and found it difficult to see what could pass the GNG guidelines and despite the above votes I would strongly recommend that this is not worthy of an article for the following:
 * GNG clearly states that there should be multiple RS on the subject looking at the links in this thread there is one.
 * The one RS is the guardian for being part of a competition not even for winning it.
 * in the guardian article a claim is made that is completely unsubstantiated (there are no primary or non-RS to back this claim) and that is that he is a "polymath". Polymath would be easy to verify and for a profile of such an individual who designed games see Demis Hassabis. This would mean that the article has not undergone the fact checking required that is what is needed for a RS. Without that line it is only on the basis of notability ofthe games that could give him notability.
 * The video games is a high-profile area. Many games make the main news. While project video games lacks criteria for biographies this would not currently pass even if they did.
 * The normal criteria for an author or boardgame designer include that notable awards have been awarded for the book or games. This is lacking here.
 * while the wikileaks game may warrant a passing reference in a wikileaks article, this is not the first game themed on a news event. Such games for the financial crisis made the news.
 * The sources indicate that he was unable to charge for a game. There were over 1 million games produced for the ZX spectrum. Clearly writing a game is not enough for a profile.

While notability is not dependent upon time, I cannot see sufficient coverage to show significant note in the field nor any individual accomplishment of note. Even the primary sources seem very amateur for someone working in game design. The future may allow for notability but this clearly has not yet been managed. Tetron76 (talk) 13:52, 6 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Allow me to respond to each point.
 * Every single link I provided is considered a reliable source. What makes MSNBC, a hugely well-known web site, not reliable?
 * That is a strong mis-characterization of notability. An article need not POSITIVE coverage, merely coverage period. It wouldn't hurt his notability if he won, but it doesn't hurt it that he lost.
 * If you wish to discuss the deeper argument that video game web sites have poor criteria for inclusion, discuss it on WP:VG. You can't use your own POV to denounce video game web sites as viable sources.
 * To require that he won an award is an arbitrary criteria. What if he was called the worst developer ever by many reliable sources, but not given an award? Logically, according to the arbitrary rule of an award given to a notable individual, he is not notable.
 * Games made for the financial crisis were not the first games themed on a news event. Such games were made for school shootings. But there have been games made for news events before that. Is the only notable game based on a news event the first one in the history of video games?
 * That last point doesn't make any sense and has nothing to do with notability and everything to do with asserting that a video game developer needs to distribute their games through a publisher to possibly be notable.
 * As is, the problem isn't lack of reliable sources, but the perception that video game web sites cannot assert notability and that indie video game developers have extra threshold. Notability requires that a sourced be covered in multiple reliable sources in a non-trivial sense. At what point do we extend bias against video game people to say that video game people are inherently less notable than people in film? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 04:33, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * while the sites can provide reliable sources several of the links that you provided are already dead, ie no mention of the subject. My point that hasn't been answered by the links is what makes him notable over any other independent game designer. The only statement I saw on him rather than his game was in the guardian but since there is no evidence that he is a polymath, I would argue that this statement should be discounted.
 * My point about no VG project criterria is that it is then the assumption that he should meet the GNG. Now I didn't try to find all of the broken links you made but from the ones that are left, there was nothing other than the games themselves that could make him notable. For me the games don't seem exceptionally novel or innovative so he doesn't appear unique from a design perspective. This only leaves one possible criteria for notability and this is for the games themselves being so notable that he warrants an article as well as the game.
 * It may be that WP:CREEP has been happening for a while but this would not pass the Articles for creation standards on the current evidence.Tetron76 (talk) 18:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Not one single link that I provided is dead. Game Set Watch's WikiLeaks article is still up, both of Just Adventure's articles are still up, The Guardian's coverage of notable indie developers is still up, MSNBC's WikiLeaks article is still up, and The Escapist's use of his opinion for their article is still up. To say that even one of these links is irrelevant to the subject is a flat-out lie, or at best, an entirely misinformed statement. Wikipedia requires that we establish notability by non-trivial coverage by reliable sources. I'd love to know why fulfilling this does not make him more notable than "any" indie developer (there are likely thousands of indie video game developers that have no coverage, so it's fair to say that he is more notable simply be common sense). And am I to understand that a reliable source is not enough to verify information? By your logic, if The Guardian makes a statement on any subject that isn't one that everyone else makes, The Guardian can never be used. "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth; that is, whether readers can check that material in Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether editors think it is true." Is he a polymath? Who knows - but more importantly, who cares, when calling him a polymath is acceptable for The Guardian's link? You seem to think that he has to be a visionary of independent video game development. Do you propose that we delete Uwe Boll for being an uninspired film director? And explain to me why an indie video game developer should not be notable for his works. Shigeru Miyamoto is not notable for biking, gardening, or cooking - he is notable for the video games that he makes. He could be the most bland, uninspired, and outright mediocre video game developer, and he would be as notable as he is now if he had all of this coverage. Mention on Wikipedia requires verifiable coverage of a subject, not quality of a subject. To cite WP:CREEP when you've made weird attempts to bypass policies like WP:V, and attempting to denounce sources as unreliable while clearly not actually knowing if this is true, is entirely ironic. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:21, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Shigeru Miyamoto notability can be clearly evidenced with numerous awards... I was never questioning if he had done the actions claimed in the sources merely that they did not make him notable MTG with fairly loose criteria don't accept winning the world championships counts as notable.
 * If his actions were non-notable, then there would not be non-trivial coverage of him by reliable sources - which is far more important than whatever notability criteria you think exists. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment Kyratzes was prominently featured in the February issue of GEE, a glossy German gaming magazine (http://www.geemag.de/). The article misspells his last name but it has many quotations, details about his person and a photo. I have a copy of the magazine and will add it as a reference later. He was also apparently featured in an article in Journalist, a large German "media magazine" for professional journalists (http://www.journalist.de/). I don't have access to that though.IndieGamesGermany (talk) 20:35, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * If he was prominently featured in German RS there may well be a genuine case but he doesn't have a german wikipedia page. But having now tracked through www.google.de as well as googling all of the games there is very little on-line evidence and it is certainly more than 5 minutes searching even to find the above refernces. The first page download links have very low stats for games of notes. While the game with a wikipage may have a case for novelty reading some fo the non-RS comments the number of hits on the blogs giving major coverage are very very low. Other references on the page are coming from a person that he shares a blog - it would be better to use primary sources.
 * The general google profile is very weak for someone who is notable - try google images for example. There are pages which should not be anywhere in google page rank if he was well known as a designer. His games seem to lack the numbers I would expect too. Creation of a page should wait for note to be established such as through an award or major coverage I don't see why deletion should be in a different category.Tetron76 (talk) 19:19, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The lack of a German Wikipedia page is not relevant to this discussion. Google is not relevant to this discussion. We needn't look at unreliable sources to verify information, and your argument is dependent on them, while we have provided several sources that discuss him to a significant degree - with not one of them showing any degree of unreliability. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:11, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Are we assuming bad faith? Are you accusing IndieGamesGermany of being a liar? What you are doing is attempting to put an exceedingly high criteria of doubt on the existence of this. Please provide any policy that requires that an editor must provide online documentation of existence. Again, I will ask why The Guardian suddenly has stopped being major coverage. And MSNBC. And the German gaming magazine (which, suffice it to say, does not require online evidence that the article exists). Tell the hundreds of featured articles that rely on print sources that they have to prove through online means that their print sources mention the subject article - I'm sure that they would love to explain that they needn't do so. Your argument seems to be based around trying to devalue otherwise quality sources by attempting to establish that indie developers need to have stronger references than other developers. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:02, 9 March 2011 (UTC)
 * you appear to lack objectivity on this subject. But I have now done several hours of searching using the games and the authors name which is made easy by it being unique. If it was not for the guradian article it would be clearcut to delete. The content of the article is important more than someones name appearing and this is the point you appear to missing.
 * It is possible that he is on the cusp of becoming notable but at the time of the article creation there was no evidence to support this. And it is not correct to keep a page because the sources might be coming... This is not a case of "presumed" sources the only match on the games developer sites was basically a one line response to a game advert from 2001. Some sites are editable by anyone and have very little content.
 * I admit that I don't have experience of games recently but the downloads from sites that quote statistics don't have any of his games in the top 4000 freeware games with less than 1% of total downloads. Very few sites have profiles on him. There is little information on the games to let someone who did know the game set it apart from other games.
 * My comment about the german article was to do with not having details it is difficult to pass a judgement.
 * But I have friends with better online status in terms of u-tube hits,twitter and I am finding it difficult to find even implicit evidence that until he wins an award or a game makes a list, a respect person in the industry comments on him that he is as notable as the other people in the german game designer category.Tetron76 (talk) 19:16, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Just like if it weren't for the hundreds of references in Batman, the character's article would be deleted. That's faulty logic - this isn't a discussion of things that did not happen. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:11, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.