Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jonathan Bonnitcha (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Fritzpoll (talk) 13:35, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Jonathan Bonnitcha
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Procedural nomination on my part, in behalf of an IP who placed an AfD tag on the page and explained their reasoning on the talk page. Speedy deletion was proposed by the IP here, but I removed the tag since the article contains a claim of importance/significance. (I'm assuming here that the IPs are the same person, please correct me if I'm wrong.) Arguments for deletion by the IP can be found on the article's talk page. Jafeluv (talk) 08:05, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Information
 * While I applaud and support the principle of Jafeluv's action(s), he hasn't told the whole story. His quotes are somewhat out of context and are out of chronological order, which is perhaps a little misleading.


 * Chronology
 * 2007 July:
 * 25: Jonathan Bonnitcha article created
 * 25: Nominated for deletion - Articles for deletion/Jonathan Bonnitcha
 * 30: Articles for deletion/Jonathan Bonnitcha - Result: keep
 * 2007 August:
 * 02: 129.67.43.241 frivolous edits
 * 25: 129.67.43.241 frivolous edits
 * 2007 November:
 * 03: 203.129.57.198 vandalism
 * 03: 203.129.43.234 vandalism * 2
 * 2007 December:
 * 07: 121.216.128.249 vandalism
 * 2008 February:
 * 25: 129.67.158.227 random edit
 * 2008 April:
 * 14: 151.48.23.93 nonsense edit
 * 30: 129.67.158.68 nonsense edit
 * 2008 May:
 * 02: 203.129.53.87 vandalism * 3
 * 07: 129.67.158.68 revert vandalism
 * 15: 203.129.53.87 add list of non-notable events and negative comments
 * 16: 203.129.53.87 started a conversation at Talk:List of Rhodes Scholars
 * 16: 203.129.53.87 started a conversation at Talk:Jonathan Bonnitcha. Subsequently contributed to the conversation as 203.129.59.239 and 124.176.115.186
 * 17: 203.129.59.239 prod - (prod removed)
 * 18: 124.176.115.186 put prod back - (prod removed)
 * 2008 November:
 * 02: 121.217.159.82 nonsense edit
 * 03: 78.86.163.123 nonsense edit
 * 05: 129.67.68.158 nonsense edit
 * 22: 121.44.42.42 removed some nonsense
 * 2009 April:
 * 16: 129.67.157.224 add ref
 * 2009 July:
 * 16: 203.111.40.134 nonsense edit
 * 2009 August:
 * 14: 203.111.40.134 speedy delete - (removed)
 * 14: 203.111.40.134 removed referenced text
 * 15: 124.184.166.131 prod
 * 17: 203.111.40.134 prod
 * 17: 203.111.40.134 placed a prod on Talk:Jonathan Bonnitcha
 * 17: Jafeluv posted AfD


 * A more complete, and chronological, description of the chain of events is:
 * 2009-Jul-16: 203.111.40.134 nonsense edit
 * 2009-Aug-14: 203.111.40.134 speedy delete "db-a7", "db-person"
 * 2009-Aug-14: 203.111.40.134 removed referenced text
 * 2009-Aug-17: 203.111.40.134 prod
 * 2009-Aug-17: 203.111.40.134 also placed a prod on Talk:Jonathan Bonnitcha - with explanation:
 * 1: This person is not 'notable' for sporting achievements, which tends to be the subject of this page. After researching the person, he has not even come close to qualifying for an Olympic Games.
 * 2: There is no independant verification of this person being part of some "Shadow" Olympic Team - it does not exist.
 * 3: The general 'notability' of this person is arguable to say the least.
 * Does not satisfy either:
 * WP:ACADEMIC
 * WP:ATHLETE
 * On talk page, it was explained to IP that that 1, 2 and 3 are false statements, "Academic" is irrelevant, and "Athlete" has been addressed previously, twice.
 * It was then, at this point, that appeared.


 * Response to that is:
 * This matter has been dealt with, at length, and resolved, TWICE before. You are raising it a THIRD time. You are not supplying ANY new evidence, you are not making ANY new claims, and it appears that you have paid NO attention to ANYTHING that has been said, discussed OR decided in previous discussions.
 * Pdfpdf (talk) 16:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions.  —Grahame (talk) 02:32, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - nothing changed since original AfD. Rlendog (talk) 19:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - he is notable as an athlete, and that is documented with references in the article. -- Whpq (talk) 20:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep - as per WHpq and Rlendog Pdfpdf (talk) 22:55, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete - I'm not seeing the notability. The subject didn't make it to the Olympics. A Rhodes Scholarship isn't notable in itself. I'm wondering why the subject is on the list of notable Rhodes Scholars?  florrie  04:42, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "I'm not seeing the notability" -
 * ''Bonnitcha is a competitive windsurfer and is a blue in sailing. In 2001 and 2002 he was placed 4th and 3rd respectively at the World Sailing Championships in the 29er Class . In 2003 he was a member of the national Olympic squad for windsurfing, and in 2004 he was named in the Shadow Olympic windsurfing team . In 2005 he came first in the Australian Sailing Championship (Mistral Class), and was ranked top in the Australian Olympic Class Windsurfing Rankings.
 * "The subject didn't make it to the Olympics." - There are many notable sportspeople who "didn't make it to the Olympics". Why do you mention this?
 * "A Rhodes Scholarship isn't notable in itself." - Agreed.
 * "I'm wondering why the subject is on the list of notable Rhodes Scholars?" - Suggest you read talk:List of Rhodes Scholars where it is discussed at length. In very brief summary: a) He has a page on WP. Therefore, by definition, he is notable. b) He is a Rhodes Scholar. c) Therefore, he is a notable Rhodes Scholar.
 * Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 05:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Thank you for your suggestion, I had already read the definition. Rather a circular arrangement. Create an article, therefore notable, therefore on list on Rhodes Scholars, therefore must be notable. I mentioned the Olympics because the article mentioned the Olympics and gives an aura of notability. Yet he didn't get there. As I said, I'm not seeing the notability. Just my opinion as I am entitled - I think, still - to give.  florrie  15:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC) PS, you may like to snip out that quote above from the article, it looks rather untidy. I have to say, your "brief summary" made me giggle, considering the context and all! Cheers,  florrie  16:00, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - He has competed at the World Sailing Championships. Per WP:Athlete, that's notable as he has competed at the top level of his sport.  Whether he qualified for the Olympics or not is relevant if he is demosntrated to have competed at the World Championships. -- Whpq (talk) 16:07, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "Create an article, therefore notable, therefore on list on Rhodes Scholars, therefore must be notable." - I think you are over-extrapolatinging; that's not quite either what I said nor quite what the talk page says: a) Create an article for a notable person. If not notable, article gets deleted, stop. If notable, article remains. b) If notable and has scholarship, then may appear on list. c) Hence, as only gets on list if notable, then if on list, is notable. - If not notable, then should not be on list. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:48, 22 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete - Cannot identify the notability. Just because he has competed at a World Championship does not mean he is notable - the world championships are OPEN-ENTRY; meaning anybody can go. Even my 8 year old daughter can go to the World Championships, but that doesn't make her notable.. I'm sure she'd do terribly, and this person's results (well outside the top-100), means he can't possibly be notable just for going to a world championship that is open-entry. A clear deletion. Taymaishu (talk) 22:49, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete we have consistently held that Rhodes Scholarship winners are not by that fact alone notable--many of them naturally do become notable. The ones who do become notable are therefore included in the list here. When the article is deleted, he will be removed from the list. Had he been on the 2008 Olympics actual squad, he would be notable.     DGG ( talk ) 03:49, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It's an interesting point you raise. He certainly isn't notable for any actions of being a Rhodes Scholar - he simply is one; not a notable Rhodes scholar. Furthermore, you raised the crux-point - he hasn't been to an Olympic Games, nor come close to being selected for one. He has simply attended an open-entry World Championship (and has not had a 'notable result'). Taymaishu (talk) 04:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

breakpoint to facilitate editing

 * Actually Taymaishu, I don't think it's an interesting point. To me, it's just a consequence of facts. To me it's pretty obvious: if he's NN, he doesn't have a WP page, and therefore doesn't appear on List of Rhodes Scholars. If he's notable, he can.
 * But digressing, where does this "notable Rhodes Scholars" come from? The page name is List of Rhodes Scholars. Pdfpdf (talk) 11:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Furthermore, it isn't "the" crux-point, it is "the point". And still further, whether he was at the olypmics or not is NOT "the" issue. Please read what has been written above; everything you have presented as "new" and "interesting" and "crux-points" has already been mentioned and, to varying degrees, discussed. Your conclusions are reasonable (I don't necessarily agree with them, but they are reasonable), but you are not adding anything new. Pdfpdf (talk) 13:01, 24 August 2009 (UTC)


 * DDG & Taymaishu: Can we please drop this Notability-of-Rhodes-Scholars discussion? It's just a red herring getting in the way of the real discussion. NOBODY is, or ever has, tried to claim he is notable because he was awarded a Rhodes Scholarship. Could you please strike through your Rhodes Scholarship related comments so we can concentrate on the actual issue of whether he is a notable sportsperson, or not? Thanks, Pdfpdf (talk) 11:59, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.