Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jonni Heikkinen


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete due to the WP:ATHLETE failure (if an editor has proof that the Finnish league is actually fully professional, let me know and I'll restore). пﮟოьεԻ  5  7  14:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Jonni Heikkinen

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Contested PROD. Player doesn't play in a professional league. Spiderone 07:45, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. Spiderone  07:45, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:GNG. GiantSnowman 08:26, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Please stop giving false information. Finnish league is professional and Heikkinen had a professional contract with his club KuPS. --SM (talk) 12:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment False information? Why don't you start backing up your claims with reliable sources. Spiderone  12:18, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You are meaning that in every article of football player there should be mentioned that the league he is playing or have previoisly played is professional? In my opinion that is not an useful idea. --SM (talk) 13:03, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * There is no proof on the Veikkausliiga page that the clubs are professional. In fact it's the opposite. Spiderone  13:48, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry. Now there is, and it is the only sourced claim in the whole page. --SM (talk) 13:57, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I translated the page and found no such claim of professionalism. Quite the opposite. The previous statement said stuff about part-time contracts and we have no reason to suddenly say that it's a load of rubbish since it's been there since Wikipedia was born. Spiderone  13:59, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * You must understand that Google Translator etc. are not quite reliable. The page says that the clubs, managers, players etc. are on professional level but still many players have an education which is normal because you can't play football your whole life. That does not meen that the players are not pro. --SM (talk) 14:04, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * From what I read it said that players were studying and playing football at the same time. A clear sign of being part-time which means the league must be semi-pro to accomodate. Spiderone  14:07, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * In that case English Premiership is not professional? Many players are doing other jobs like appearing in advertisements and some are studying manager's licence etc.--SM (talk) 14:10, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Perhaps we should look at WP:GNG. Has the player received "significant coverage"? Absolutely not. Nothing more than trivial mentions. Any "sources independent of the subject"? No, nothing more than squad profiles. Any "reliable sources"? No, there aren't any that I can find and there certainly aren't any at the moment. Spiderone  14:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Jonni Heikkinen has received sinificant coverage in Finnish sports media very much the same amount as any second highest tier player. The coverage is mostly in Finnish which I think you don't understand, so I believe your estimations about the coverage are not very reliable.--SM (talk) 18:30, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * But just looking at the article there would be no way of knowing that this player has significant coverage. Spiderone  18:43, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * How good or bad an article is has nothing to do with the notability of the subject. --SM (talk) 18:53, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * I can't just take your word for it either. As it stands this article fails WP:GNG. An unsourced BLP can't ever pass it. Spiderone  18:56, 26 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Like I said the amount of sources in the article has nothing to do with the notability of the subject. You can write bad article about anybody and it does not have effect to the notability. --SM (talk) 15:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)
 * SM: The sources are needed for both verification and to improve the article. I was just discussing ball in Finland on another talk page. Correct me if I am wrong but it looks like some Finnish players are professional while others are not. This has caused some confusion with the athlete specific notability guidelines. If you have sources regarding this specific player it would help. Even if they are not translated we can poke around the internet and see what we can find. As it stands, Heikkinen won't be assumed pro (not saying he is or isn't just saying what will happen). More importantly, the article simply isn't ready to be an informative summary of the guy without additional sources. If you want to seriously see if this can be an article the best way to go about this is by providing those sources.Cptnono (talk) 12:07, 29 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, he is not fully pro at the moment. But he has played in top tier. Example: in 2006 he won the Finnish League Cup with KuPS . And yes, at the moment the article is not very good in any way. But the vote is on about notability, not the level of article itself. --SM (talk) 01:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * In Finnish highest league players are almost entirely pro. Like I answered you in my talk page, in 2001 survey only 8% of top tier players had other jobs than football (which does not mean they are not pro still!), and since then the league has improved in all ways. --SM (talk) 01:40, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * One more comment: How much a player earns money is not the best indicator for notability. For example media coverage is more important. The top league matches are shown on national television, written on national newspapers etc. which I think makes the media coverage "significant". --SM (talk) 01:48, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * How are we supposed to know that this player is notable? Do we just take your word for it? Wikipedia isn't about assumptions, I'm afraid. If he has been talked about in newspapers then why can't this be used in the article? As it stands this is a stub and, unlike Gael Kakuta and Lauri Dalla Valle, there is no reason to dispose of WP:ATHLETE in this case. Spiderone  12:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete - Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 23:54, 30 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. Has played in the Finnish top league (a professional league) + is a League Cup winner. ,,n (talk) 00:45, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
 * But it isn't a professional league though, as your mate SM fully admits! GiantSnowman 08:54, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:43, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Comment, I know that technically this discussion could have been closed as a no consensus call, but given the weakness of the arguments above (a he said/she said spat, a per nom), I think this could benefit from more community input. Lankiveil (speak to me) 09:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC).


 * Delete: Maybe this has exposed flaws in WP:ATH and WP:FPL criteria, but as it stands, those are the tools by which we judge articles that do not apparently meet WP:GNG. If those wishing to defend the inclusion of this article had spent as much time and effort sourcing and providing the evidence of the significant coverage that they claim exists (but is absent from the player's fi.wikipedia page) as they have trying to overturn established criteria, I might have been able to !vote otherwise. Kevin McE (talk) 10:35, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete: Spiderone may have been in a spit spat contest above, but Kevin is correct that the player fails to meet WP:ATH and WP:FTL criterion. avs5221 (talk) 14:21, 3 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep has played in the top-level of a notable European league. Eldumpo (talk) 21:06, 3 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Saying the league is "notable" is POV. It is a semi-pro league and the player himself has not received any coverage in secondary sources. Spiderone  07:21, 4 October 2009 (UTC)
 * All you've done is prove that the player is real, you haven't proved that they are notable. Spiderone  07:24, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment is the winner of a Finnish cup competition less notable than someone who has made a substitute appearance for a fourth tier English team in an early round of a cup competition? WFCforLife (talk) 17:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * According to WP:ATHLETE, yes. This is why the article must pass WP:GNG. Spiderone  17:59, 5 October 2009 (UTC)
 * My point is that my example certainly wouldn't pass the GNG, yet would be kept. I'm leaning towards delete because there is currently no demonstration of notability (in Finnish or English). The keep arguments claim that such sources exist (in Finnish), and if these are put into the article and verified as being reliable, I don't see a basis for deleting it, whether it passes the atrociously worded WP:ATHLETE or not. WFCforLife (talk) 20:36, 5 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete the Finnish sources (which I still believe do exist) have not materialised. A name on a lineup sheet isn't sufficient. WFCforLife (talk) 21:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.