Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jory Prum


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. The meatpuppetry here is no more than a minor irritation. The votes may be in favor of "delete", but policy is not: 's analysis of the sources indicates clearly enough that there is in-depth coverage by reliable sources, and if they're on the fence, the conclusion should be keep. The comment by, though apparently controversial, is worthwhile pondering as well. One more thing: should stay away from this article. Drmies (talk) 03:02, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Jory Prum

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Shameless autobiography of an apparently wholly non-notable sound engineer. Sourced mostly to IMDb, YouTube, various wikis, blogs and the like. No in-depth coverage whatsoever; several of the sources cited, such as the Chicago Tribune, do not mention him at all. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 18:37, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 02:29, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:29, 7 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 02:29, 7 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep. Justlettersandnumbers is shamelessly pursuing deletion of this article based entirely on it being autobiographical. The editor sent multiple warnings as I worked on substantial revisions to the old article in my sandbox (in an effort to ensure neutral tone and provide citations for all information included) and has tried to find any excuse possible to make it appear as if the citations are not of quality. If this editor's standard was applied to other people, it would prove difficult for anyone to be considered notable or for a citation to be made that referred to modern forms of media.


 * Audio engineering and dialogue production is an invisible art, which means that direct mention within news media is extremely rare. (This concept is accepted to such a degree that books are titled using the phrase: Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art). As such, articles like the Chicago Tribune citation Justlettersandnumbers singles out are provided as verification that the film attributed to Jory Prum did indeed appear in the festival. A further citation is provided which links to the film itself, allowing anyone to see the direct connection of Jory Prum to the achievement of having his work accepted into a highly regarded film festival. Film festivals commonly refer only to the director of a film by name, not the audio engineer.


 * As IMDB is considered a poor source due to its self-editability, YouTube citations were provided to verify involvement on projects such as The Walking Dead: The Game and Broken Age. Jory Prum was deemed notable enough by the Nordic Game Conference to be invited two years in a row to give keynotes at the major conference on video game development. The fact that one of the projects discussed in a keynote also has won 90+ Game of the Year awards and multiple awards for the voice acting/performances (which, again, are partially attributable to the invisible art of audio engineering and dialogue production), would, in many people's eyes, make for further notability.


 * Another YouTube citation features Ralph Eggleston, the director of the Pixar film For the Birds, accepting the Academy Award for "Best Animated Short Feature". In his acceptance speech he personally thanks "Skywalker Sound, Jory Prum, and The Riders in the Sky for their wonderful sound work". One could argue that being personally included in the same breath with the highly-acclaimed Skywalker Sound during an Oscar acceptance speech would indicate notability.


 * Further, Justlettersandnumbers effectively declares all wikis and blogs to be valueless as citations. Wookieepedia, the Star Wars wiki, was cited as additional verification of involvement as part of the LucasArts sound team and projects worked on during that time. It is easy to see that the Wookieepedia article on Jory Prum both verifies this information and was created in 2009 by a user who is quite obviously not Jory Prum. The other wiki/blog cited is the fan site for "The Walking Dead" series, which conducted interviews with many members of the audio and voice team responsible for the game. The page was created by Kaffe4200 and the history of that page indicates it has not been created or edited by Jory Prum.


 * One of the blogs cited is an interview Jory Prum's alma mater conducted regarding his involvement with "The Walking Dead: The Game" and how his studies at CalArts influenced his work. The citation is provided both to verify involvement with the project, as well as verification of attending the California Institute of the Arts and some biographical information about his mentors and focus of study.


 * Additionally, several Wikipedia articles refer to Jory Prum, including the article for Grim Fandango, the classic LucasArts adventure game. The Grim Fandango article points out Jory Prum's involvement in the restoration work of that classic title and cites a long-form article at Polygon, a premier video game news website. The long-form article spends about 20% of its coverage discussing the work Jory Prum performed, which was critical to the remastered edition, released in January 2015. A YouTube video is also cited in regards to this project, during which the highly respected composer Peter McConnell praises Jory Prum's work in the restoration efforts, stating "...it was a real nail-biter because, you know, all those performances were tucked away on these tapes. But we got 'em, thanks to a guy named Jory Prum, who's a genius who lives around my area, who does...just knows everything about everything technical."


 * Lastly, while working on the substantial revision of the article, I made efforts to discuss the neutrality, the quality of citations, and the qualification of notability with both Justlettersandnumbers and Jimfbleak, another editor. The discussion is documented on my User_talk:Jory. It is clear that Justlettersandnumbers is preoccupied with the autobiography aspect and uninterested in the actual content, whether it is neutral, whether the article is of value, or if notability is established. Justlettersandnumbers's only qualification for notability in this case appears to be whether someone unconnected has authored the article, and therefore Justlettersandnumbers has decided the test is failed merely due to the autobiographical involvement.


 * I therefore rebutt Justlettersandnumbers's assertions and ask that the article be kept.Jory (talk) 04:27, 7 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment I speedied the first draft of this, but I was asked to help improve it, and since autobiographies aren't actually forbidden, I cooperated with that request. It's worth following the talk page link above to see the discussion. I did point out that although the article was probably safe from speedy deletion it could be nominated here. Because of my involvement with this article, I don't intend to vote to keep or delete Jimfbleak - talk to me?  07:17, 7 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep. It is apparent that the Wikipedia editor fighting to delete the Jory Prum article, using the ID justlettersandnumbers (JLAN), is the one exhibiting, not only extreme bias, but extreme malice, in a manner which appears to be more consistent with personal vendetta than actual attempt at neutrality.


 * In other words, the argument for deletion of the Prum article is not a legitimate attempt to "neutralize" content in compliance with Wikipedia guidelines, but a biased attempt by a non-neutral individual with a personal grudge, to discredit and malign, using Wikipedia as both the weapon and the battleground, in a "shameless" ad-hominem attack.


 * In summary, it is the opinions as expressed by JLAN, and not the article itself, that are by Wikipedia's own definitions and guidelines, violations of Wikipedia terms and conditions. CrisCross1836 (talk) 17:40, 7 February 2015 (UTC) — CrisCross1836 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Comments. I disagree with the nomination when it says "wholly non-notable" as clearly there is a little coverage of the subject. The question before us is whether the subject is sufficiently notable for an article. I have my doubts but, much as I distrust autobiographical writing and detest the personal attacks on the nominator above, I am not quite sure enough to vote delete. I am not familiar with the precedents. Do we have articles for similar people with the same levels of coverage? Would other articles regard those accolades as significant? One thing I am pretty sure of is that CrisCross1836 (seemingly an account registered just for this particular issue) is doing anything but helping Jory's cause by hyping up the discussion here. --DanielRigal (talk) 19:59, 7 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Responding to DanielRigal's question about other articles for similar people with same (or lower) levels of coverage. This is just a random selection I found of other game developers or audio engineers. (It is difficult to find any articles at all that refer to video game audio engineers, most likely due to the lack of coverage the press tends to pay to the contributions of that portion of the games industry.) Sean Clark, Michael Stemmle, Larry Ahern, Paul Wedgwood, Jeff Hickman, Joe Sparks, Howie Beno, Mike Coykendall, Niko Bolas, Steve Burke. None of these are nominated for deletion at this time. The Joe Sparks article was tagged for speedy deletion and the tag was removed in 2010 with the comment, "removed speedy tag - there are claims to significance in article". Mike Coykendall was tagged for deletion a year ago, but there is no note as to why the article was allowed to remain. Steve Burke was nominated for speedy deletion, but the tag was declined with the comment, "decline; asserts importance with scoring of video games". Some are clearly tagged as needing improvement or citations. None have very many quality citations. Another good article to compare to might be Jared Emerson-Johnson, a composer I have worked with on a great many projects. We have worked on projects that received awards together, and I have utilized his article as an guide for the substantial revision of mine. Also, I agree with you that CrisCross1836 is not adding to the discussion in a constructive manner. I do not feel that I have been singled out by Justlettersandnumbers; only that the rules are being applied unevenly and that citations are being cherry-picked by the editor to prove a point that is not true when viewed within a larger frame. Jory (talk) 20:41, 7 February 2015 (UTC)


 * This is not a valid rationale for keeping an article. All you've done is provided reasons why those other articles should, in theory, be deleted as well. Other sloppy article's not being caught yet is not a defense to keep one at a deletion discussion. Sergecross73   msg me  21:29, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * My apology for not being clear. I was merely responding to the question posted by DanielRigal about other articles for similar people with the same levels of coverage. I have fixed the indentation to make the response more obviously part of a thread. Jory (talk) 23:57, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete - I was the one who nominated this article for speedy deletion (right here) primarily on the grounds that it was an article that was made by the person who was the subject matter. Looking at the article in its new incarnation, I don't believe that the article has that much reliable sources to show the subject matter being notable. The Polygon article was a nice catch but seeing IMDB, Wookiepedia, a link from Google Groups, YouTube videos and this as sources, along with some references that I'm unfamiliar with their reliable (e.g Lzy Gmrs) really has me believing there's a case of grasping at straws to find some sources to use for this page. GamerPro64  04:44, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Responding to GamerPro64's comment about certain unfamiliar or "weak" sources. The reason for the Lzy Gmrs citation is because the Golden Joystick Awards nominations data is no longer shown on the official website and most reputable news sites only include a short list, which doesn't mention the nominees for less popular categories like "Best Audio". I have now replaced that flat list from a lesser known news blog with the archive.org cache of the original website. The reason for some of the other citations you are calling into question is not so much a "grasping at straws", but out of an effort to cite information as being credible and not pulled out of thin air. For example, the NY Times link was to verify involvement with the two films listed, since IMDB is considered a weak source and one would hope the NY Times and All Media Guide (which are not user editable) would be considered stronger. The Google Groups citation was to verify the claim of having worked at Jim Henson's Creature Shop. I was not given screen credit for the work I did on a film while I was there and the only online verification I could source was a thread relating to work I had been performing with the Acorn Computer-based proprietary Henson Puppet Control System at the time. I realize that particular citation is flimsy, and if it were to be removed, then there would be no way (apart from my resume and from anecdotes of others I worked with) that I actually did work there. Of course, it is far less notable than having done signature sound design for a PIxar film and being thanked in the director's acceptance speech, and could easily be removed if it is considered too weak to include in the biography. I'm unclear why a YouTube video that contains a third party discussing work the subject did or verifies involvement in a project is considered weak sourcing. There were also two books cited, one published by Pixar, and the other by Oxford University; do those sources not qualify as strong and indicative of notability? Jory (talk) 09:41, 8 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep - I cannot get into the significance of references for this article, but I feel strongly about the notability of the subject matter. Alone his recent contributions to the restoration of Grim Fandango, detailed at Polygon, makes him notable to computer (gaming) historians, gamers and others. Ltning (talk) 10:19, 9 February 2015 (UTC) — Ltning (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Keep * Without being a game buff, I have always been interested in sound engineering. This is not exactly a high profile profession, and if anyone tells me they know the name of the team behind "Amadeus" or "Black Hawk Down", I'll be the first to call on their b.s. So, any references on "notability" are not only biased, but also very subjective. I think it would take someone really dedicated to the Foley sound effects or sound engineering in general to be able to name team members, even from highly acclaimed films. Returning to the topic at hand, I was quite taken with the in depth article on Polygon regarding the restoration technique for Grim Fandango and it made me want to read up more on the game itself and the crazy people who were involved in that particular task. It would be a shame to have the little information available scrapped entirely because of this controversy...RazvraTina (talk) 10:30, 9 February 2015 (UTC) ) — RazvraTina (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic, and this is the first for six years.


 * Keep It seems to me to be a well cited and neutral article about an audio designer that has done a lot of important work on several big titles in both games and animation production. When you see people get mentioned by name in articles about projects like Grim Fandango, Sam and Max, For The birds, (or oscar acceptance speeches for that matter,) you would really like your google search to return a well made wiki article to you for more information.SteepMountain (talk) 17:58, 9 February 2015 (UTC) ) — SteepMountain (talk • contribs) has made no other edits outside this topic.


 * Comment - Can anyone supply more sources that cover the subject, Jory Porum, in significant detail? Outside of the Polygon source, every single one I've decided to spot-check from the article either mentioned him very briefly in passing, or not at all. It needs to discuss him in significant detail for him to meet Wikipedia's standards for having an article.. Without providing more actual proof, all these editors coming out to say it's "a well sourced article" are going to be ignored, because it's a baseless claim. You need to prove what you're actually saying. Sergecross73   msg me  21:27, 9 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Here are some of the more thorough sources:
 * * Digital archeology: How Double Fine, Disney, LucasFilm and Sony resurrected Grim Fandango (Polygon)
 * * From Scarface to Simlish (Mix Magazine)
 * * The Sound of Norway in Games (in Norwegian) (VG newspaper)
 * * The Walking Dead Video Game ‘Sound Guy’ Jory Prum Discusses His Work (24700: News from California Institute of the Arts)
 * * The Walking Dead Wiki Interviews/Jory Prum (The Walking Dead Wiki)
 * * Fairfax studio finds recording niche with video games (Marin Independent Journal newspaper)
 * * StudioJory Gets in the Game (ProSoundNews magazine)
 * * What's Your Story, Jory? Prum Opens Bay Area Video Game Facility (Mix Magazine)
 * * The Walking Dead - Jory Prum Interview (GameReactor magazine) (video)
 * * The Voices Behind The Walking Dead (in Swedish) (Level7)


 * It is challenging for audio engineers to get more than a mention (if even that much) in the media. Most of the time, audio engineers are just the butt of everyone's jokes, not real news or features.


 * Most of the other citations on the article are merely support for factual data, since Wikipedia requires citations for all information. Jory (talk) 23:12, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Regarding the sources:
 * Digital archeology: How Double Fine, Disney, LucasFilm and Sony resurrected Grim Fandango - Sourced deemed reliable by consensus at WP:VG/S. While Prum is not necessarily the main things being discussed in it, it does discuss him in significant detail. Good source.
 * From Scarface to Simlish - I'm not familiar with the website, but looking it over, I didn't find anything that made me think it would be unreliable. Much like the Polygon source, he is not the main subject, but is discussed in some detail. Good source
 * The Sound of Norway in Games (in Norwegian) - I can't read Norwegian, but his name is mentioned 11 times through the article, its a relative long piece, and a photo of him at the top as the main photo, so it appears to cover him in detail. Probably reliable.
 * The Walking Dead Video Game ‘Sound Guy’ Jory Prum Discusses His Work - Appears to be a non-notable blog from some sort of educational center. Clicking on the author just gave a link to "other things he posted", no info on credentials. Probably not usuable.
 * The Walking Dead Wiki Interviews/Jory Prum Wikis are almost always not useable - because they are open to edit by anyone, and often run by people of no real authority. Not usable.
 * Fairfax studio finds recording niche with video games (Marin Independent Journal newspaper) - Link wouldn't work for me, so I couldn't check it. Inconclusive.
 * StudioJory Gets in the Game (ProSoundNews magazine) - He is the article's main subject, and is discussed in detail. Good Source.
 * What's Your Story, Jory? Prum Opens Bay Area Video Game Facility (Mix Magazine) - He is the article's main subject, and is discussed in detail. Good Source.
 * The Walking Dead - Jory Prum Interview (GameReactor magazine) (video) - WP:VG/S doesn't have a stance on whether they're neutral or not. Interviews are generally useable for details, but not necessarily for going towards notability, because it's really more of a first party account. Inconclusive.
 * The Voices Behind The Walking Dead (in Swedish) (Level7) - I'm unfamiliar with the website, and don't know Swedish. Probably not a good sign that his name is only mentioned one single time in the article. Inconclusive
 * I'm still on the fence on this one. Generally, its seems like 4-5 reliable sources covering the subject in detail is enough to warrant a "Keep". This one is close. I'm starting to think there could be a policy-based reason for keeping the article, unless someone can present some ways that I'm wrong... Sergecross73   msg me  18:08, 12 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Re: item #3) |en&tbb=1&ie=UTF-8 Here is a Google Translated version of the article which, while imperfect, will at least get the content across.
 * Re: item #6) The Marin Independent Journal's website is not working today, apparently. Here is the same article, but through the San Jose Mercury News' website (same newspaper group).
 * Re: item #10) |en&tbb=1&ie=windows-1252 Here is a Google Translated version of the article which, while imperfect, will at least get the content across. Jory (talk) 18:34, 12 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment 2 If you are intending to contribute here, note that votes from Single-purpose accounts with few or no edits elsewhere will be disregarded Jimfbleak - talk to me?  15:22, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete Fails the notability criterion. A subject must meet the notability requirement of significant coverage in independent reliable sources, or he/she/it cannot have an article here. This is an international encyclopedia and it has to have standards for inclusion. The sources passionately touted above by the author-and-subject of this article do not meet the criteria of independence and reliability. Wikis, Facebook, IMDb and similar sites are neither reliable nor independent. Sergecross finds some of the references to be acceptable, and I respect his opinion, but I am less impressed by the reliability of the sources. As Jory mentioned above, "Audio engineering and dialogue production is an invisible art." Yes, it is. Invisible professions usually do not receive the required coverage. That does not mean they get to ignore or bypass the notability requirement; it means they don't get an article. BTW I trust the closing administrator will ignore all the sockpuppet or meatpuppet "keep" votes here from single purpose accounts. --MelanieN (talk) 21:09, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * , I do agree with what you say, and I'm not okay with any of the social media/WP:USERG-violating sources either. I'm open to input on the remainder of the sources. I didn't see anything wrong with them, but I can't say I'm an expert in "sound production" sources or anything, so by all means let me know if I'm overlooking details of the sources. Sergecross73   msg me  15:36, 13 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak keep per some of the sources Jory has provided and per Sergecross73's analysis of them which I largely agree with. Jory should brush up on WP:COI paying specific attention to WP:COISELF. There is no good reason that Jory's edits should represent 73% of the content and 97% of the total edits. I also trust that the closing admin will ignore the blatant meatpuppetry. -Thibbs (talk) 22:32, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
 * To clarify my view (in light of Czar's comment below), I think the subject meets GNG. Based on the sources provided. The question balances on how much coverage constitutes "significant coverage". I'd say the coverage is sufficiently significant to give it a pass. -Thibbs (talk) 15:34, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment I would like to state for the record that I have never posted on WP under any account other than the one I am using now, nor have I asked people to post favorable comments, nor told anyone that they should post or what to say. Any comments posted by the users being flagged as SPAs were done by people who were not me and were posted of their own volition. You can call them meatpuppets if you so choose; those posts are not affiliated with me, although it is entirely possible they are people I know or have worked with at some point. I just wanted to make it absolutely clear that I have tried to be honest, straightforward, level-headed, and ethical throughout this entire process and that asking others to post on my behalf in order to influence the discussion here is simply not something I will do. Jory (talk) 01:07, 13 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep. Jory's shameless and ought-to-know better WP:COI and WP:spammy walls-of-text above are almost certainly counter-productive, but if pornstars get to keep their articles based upon winning significant industry awards, then I don't see why he can't under the same criteria. Pax 01:11, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * All of these arguments related to "occupations" are invalid as well. Much like Jory's argument of "well its hard for people in my profession to get sources" doesn't matter, neither does the status of any occupation. It's third party sources to meet the WP:GNG, and not breaking any violations of WP:NOT - this is all that matters. Sergecross73   msg me  15:02, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: It's not so much that this article lacks third-party sources, but that there are few that discuss him in detail, as opposed to discussing things he's worked on and just mentioning him. Even so, there appear to be some that are primarily about him, e.g. MobyGames, GameReactor. Tezero (talk) 20:49, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Mobygames isn't a reliable source, it fails WP:USERG. WP:VG/S is undecided on if it's an RS. It's a video interview though, so it's usually considered more of a first party source. Sergecross73   msg me  00:10, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * Delete and redirect to Grim Fandango. I look to WP:CREATIVE. While Prum has coverage in somewhat of a niche field, I see the sources discussed with Serge above and they don't speak of him in such a way to fulfill Creative #1, 2, 3, or 4, which puts us back at the general notability guideline, where there is coverage that isn't quite significant. Again, what is the subject known for? Is his oeuvre cited for its monumentality? The sources do not say yes. Additionally, the article is overrun with details that do not descend from secondary sources as something of a hat rack. I would be happy to reconsider this stance if given more dedicated (and reliable) sourcing. This discussion is no doubt exacerbated by the author's inability to distance himself from the article. Wikipedia and AfD carries along just fine without any of us, and things move smoother when those overly involved can distance themselves. After deletion, I recommend a redirect to Grim Fandango, Prum's most notable work. With his knowledge of and competency with Wikipedia, I hope the author sticks around WP:VG to edit unrelated articles. czar ⨹   02:57, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
 * Redirect to Grim Fandango as the subject is not notable enough to have its own article under WP:GNG. Lacks any verifiable sources needed to properly cite a BLP.  Aerospeed  (Talk) 16:22, 16 February 2015 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mr. Guye (talk) 19:35, 16 February 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment (leaning weakest of all keeps) - This is a tough one. On one hand, there may be enough coverage to get by WP:BIO. On the other, what purpose does WP:COS serve (and it's quite clear wording) if it has no practical implications (i.e. WP:TNT)? Audio engineering and dialogue production is an invisible art, which means that direct mention within news media is extremely rare. - Wikipedia is not here to right great wrongs or to provide a venue to celebrate those professions which go under-recognized elsewhere. In fact, one of the common criticisms of Wikipedia is that when it operates according to its own rules, as a tertiary source, it reinforces the status quo (i.e. covers things already well covered). I'd also add that nothing is more effective at pushing the experienced Wikipedian crowd towards delete like a horde of single-purpose accounts !voting keep. --&mdash;  Rhododendrites  talk  \\ 00:39, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I appreciate your thoughts. I was not suggesting that WP should accept an article merely due to audio engineering being an invisible art; I was more intending the point that while some professions (such as acting or composing) can get heaps of media coverage and are easy to find reliable sources for, audio engineering as an invisible art is particularly challenging to get real coverage. As a professional, I've spent a great deal of time promoting my business and myself, trying to get any coverage I can. Most of these end up as press coverage of projects, though, not of the studio or person themselves. I guess the question I have is what constitutes enough coverage? If that standard is applied equally to all subjects, it certainly would exclude those who may be deemed notable in their own fields, despite not having name recognition outside of their field.
 * I'd also add that nothing is more effective at pushing the experienced Wikipedian crowd towards delete like a horde of single-purpose accounts !voting keep. I'm curious what constitutes a "horde". ;-) I see three accounts that have been flagged as being irregular editors, two of which may certainly be a single-purpose account. Jory (talk) 12:37, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
 * I count 4, and then there's yourself, as both the subject and the article creator. (You're not quite an SPA, as you've made edits elsewhere, but you certainly have a bias/invested interest outside of building an encyclopedia.) Sergecross73   msg me  04:05, 22 February 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash; Coffee //  have a cup  //  beans  // 00:47, 24 February 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.