Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Josef Preiß (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients (P). Lankiveil (speak to me) 06:40, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Josef Preiß
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An unremarkable Wehrmacht soldier; no significant RS coverage can be found. The article states that the subject has "200 confirmed kills" as a sniper, but searching for various combinations of "Josef Preiß", "Josef Preiss", sniper, Oberjäger, etc, did not produce a confirmation. I located an entry at feldgrau.com (non RS): Josef Preiss, but it's essentially empty.

The article was discussed at AfD in 2015, resulting in a keep decision. The discussion centered on whether the subject met WP:SOLDIER and did not produce new sources, and none were added to the article. The subject does not have a de.wiki article. He is mentioned in the [https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/100._J%C3%A4ger-Division_(Wehrmacht) 100. Jäger-Division (Wehrmacht)], with one line: "Oberjäger Josef Preiss, Gruppenführer 15. Kp./JR 227, verliehen am 20. April 1945", but no citation is provided and his kills are not mentioned.

The topic of the notability of Knight's Cross winners has been extensively discussed here: Notability in Knight's Cross Holder Articles; the summary in this subsection (Part 3). There's currently no consensus whether a single award of the Knight's Cross meets WP:SOLDIER #1, given that many were not awarded for valour and that too many were awarded overall (over 7,000).

Available sources on KC winners were discussed at Articles for deletion/Heinrich Debus (SS officer), with an insightful contribution from editor Assayer, who provided historiographic perspective on the sources (Thomas & Wegmann; Krätschmer; others) that were mentioned in related discussions. Per available information, such sources, even if available on the subject (which is not certain), are non-RS for the purpose of establishing notability. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:12, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep Josef Preiß in German or Josef Preiss:
 * Oberjäger Josef Preiss, Gruppenführer 15. Kp./JR 227, verliehen am 20. April 1945.
 * There are pictures with him, and information in German, if there are not in English it doens't mean that you will not find it in German. And watch your language such as "unremarkable soldier".
 * Here from the start: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/100._J%C3%A4ger-Division_(Wehrmacht)


 * He was recipient of the Knight's Cross and met WP:SOLDIER, there is no need to delete it. That, added to the other mentions in directories of KC recipients is, in my view, sufficient for GNG. If there was a keep decision why do you insist?


 * And leave us alone with your "given that many were not awarded for valour and that too many were awarded overall (over 7,000)". Are you historian to decide which one was awarded for valour and which was not, are you historian to decide which intricate detail or not should be kept (deleting referance from one soldiers life), are you really a historian who understand how the German system of awards worked? The Knight's Cross, which was the highest decoration for a German soldier during WWII, was awarded for extreme bravery "exceptional acts of gallantry which decisively affect combat actions" and was awarded to any rank in the German Army, and you had to been awarded first the Iron Cross 2nd Class and Iron Cross 1st Class, which were awarded for combat valour. These were conferred progressively. These awards dates back to 1813. Unlike British system, it was bestowed across all ranks and grades. It could have been awarded for a senior commander for skilled leadership of his troop in battle, or to a humble private soldier for a single act of extreme gallantry. It could have been awarded for an ace pilot for shooting down enemy planes, to a tank ace for destroying enemy armoured vehicles, or to a submarince ace for sinking enemy ships.
 * There were over 18 millions germans who served in the German Army, plus hundreds of thousands of non-germans who served (mainly in the Waffen-SS) and were eligible for Knight's Cross.
 * There were 7,282 awards of Knight's Cross and it's highest grades (the exact number is unknown as records for the last hectic months of war are incomplete), and although it might seems high to you, the Knight's Cross was a wide-ranging award (whether you like it or not). There was a rigorous process when awarding a Knight's Cross, it had to pass to many levels of scroutinity (the Divisional commander, the Korps commander, the Army Group and so on all the way to the Armed Force High Command), and was reviewed meticulous and had to be approved by Hitler himself. Like the British Victoria cross, it come with an accompanying citation and it appeared in different newspapers and others forms of propaganda, just like London Gazette. The recommendations papers, complete with added comments by various senior officers, can be found in the German Federal Archives, and I invite you to study them, because they will help alot to understand why they were awarded that medal.
 * Lastly, Germany fought continuously from 1939 till was defeated in 1945, even so the Knight's Cross was clearly an extreme rare decoration, taking in considerations how many served in the German Army with its four branches: Heer, Luftwaffe, Kriegsmarine, Waffen-SS, the non-germans and allies who received it, and the various Knight's Cross grades awarded to the original recipients.———


 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:2F0A:C0BD:C900:F18F:5AA7:29EE:395E (talk) 11:35, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment -- the Knight's Cross was not "extremely rare", if we compare it to the U.S. Medal of Honor, of which ~450 were awarded during WWII. Taking into account that U.S. armed forces were slightly larger (20M vs Germany's 18M) and the fact that Germany fought in the war longer (56 months vs 41 months for the U.S.), to be just as rare as the MoH, the Knight's Cross would have needed to be awarded in about 620 cases. This makes the KC less than 10% as "extremely rare" as the US highest award in the same war. Other points re the Knight's Cross are covered in the discussion linked above. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:04, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Alternative analysis Intensity of combat is frequently linked to the number of military casualties sustained, an aspect which should not be neglected when talking about an award made for bravery in combat. Germany (including Austria and foreign nationals fighting for Germany) sustained about 4.4 to 5.3 Mio military deaths. The United States sustained 407k military deaths in World War II. Using this indicator, on average, there was 1 presentation of the Knight's Cross for every 600 to 730 military deaths in comparison to 1 Medal of Honor presentation for about 900 military deaths. This comparison shows that the MoH was less frequent, but taking into consideration that the KC was also awarded for leadership, puts both awards into the same order of magnitude. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:32, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment There are a few things here which should be cleared up. You could receive a KC for an act of "extreme battlefield bravery" without having received the Iron Cross 1st and 2nd class in advance. In those cases you'd receive the Iron Cross (both classes) together with the KC. The awards do not "date back to 1813". The Iron Cross, formerly a Prussian order, was recomissioned (once again) as a German order in 1939. The KC was newly created as an additional grade. I think it would be most interesting to learn more about the circumstances under which a KC was actually bestowed. In cases where professional historians have reviewed the personal records of recipient's the result was mixed. Valour, so to speak, was simply not enough. In his biography of Jochen Peiper, Jens Westemeier has argued that awards were bestowed upon Manteuffel and Peiper to cover up the disastrous outcome of the Battle of the Bulge. Moreover, Himmler looked after it that members of the Waffen-SS received high awards in sufficient numbers to be able to portray the Waffen-SS as an elite unit. (Himmler's Krieger, 2013, pp. 354-5.) Relationships were crucial, in particular to your superiors. So Peiper didn't recommend Werner Pötschke, whom he disliked, for the Oak Leaves after the battle of the Bulge. It is true that compared to other military awards the KC was a rare and prestigous award (echoed, e.g., by Günther Grass in his novella Katz und Maus). But the documents pertaining to this award have to be reviewed wih care and cannot be taken at face value. In most of the KC-literature, however, these sources have not been met with sceptcism. The number of military casualties should not be equated with intensity of combat. Other variables like weaponry and armament, troop strength, training, leadership, teritory, determination and so forth do apply.--Assayer (talk) 01:38, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * My comment was meant to present an alternative view on a statistical comparison. Linking intensity of combat to military deaths is not my idea. This concept can be found in numerous sources, available online. See here, here and here. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:33, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * And the MoH was awarded to Douglas MacArthur and Jonathan M. Wainwright to cover up the disastrous Philippines Campaign (1941–42). Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:52, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * This is an argument along the lines of Other stuff exists or for modifying WP:SOLDIER #1, if its application results in propaganda-driven articles. Although in the case of Wainwright and MacArthur, MoH is not their only claim on notability: the former was Commander of Allied forces in the Philippines and the latter was a five-star general. So both are quite notable outside of the MoH award. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:54, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * So the MoH being a propaganda award, it confers no notability; the notability of the subject is defined by other considerations, such as passing WP:SOLDIER. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:06, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:07, 22 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:08, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

*Keep, notable and clearly received it as a combat award. Although I would like to see added some addition of information, but unlike others, does state reason; "200 confirmed sniper kills". Post-script Note: When I wrote this cmt, I assumed this was sourced to the books cited, but if not, it does need a RS cite for it to be kept. Kierzek (talk) 16:20, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Redirect name to list where he is mentioned; otherwise, I cannot find any English RS source to confirm why he received the high award. I assumed the sniper information was sourced to the books cited, but it cannot be confirmed and as I said, to keep it would need an WP:RS cite. Kierzek (talk) 12:42, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment -- is there a source that confirms the kills? I was not able to locate any information on this, even in unreliable sources, such as Feldgrau.com. This statement was added by an ID without providing a source: diff. I'd like to see a source for this before taking it a face value.K.e.coffman (talk) 17:26, 23 September 2016 (UTC)
 * I'm not able to find this information anywhere. For example, this WWII memorabilia site simply states: "He was an RKT, and a sniper that killed a lot of guys." I believe that whoever added this information confused Preiss with Friedrich Pein. Here's what I was able to find on a non RS website, but still:
 * "Oberjäger Friedrich Pein: Pein (...) served in the 12th Company of the mountain infantry regiment 143 as a sniper on the Eastern Front. (...) On 28 February 1945 he was awarded the Knight's Cross for 200 confirmed enemy kills.[7]"
 * Preiss is mentioned once on the same page: "Oberjäger Josef Preiss, Gruppenführer 15. Kp./JR 227, verliehen am 20. April 1945", with no kill information. K.e.coffman (talk) 20:05, 23 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment -- 200 sniper kills might make him notable, but this needs expanding from a mere stub and reliable sourcing. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:56, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: no sources, reliable or otherwise, have been presented to confirm this. The addition of this number was made by the same IP editor who made this sarcastic edit. Who knows if they meant to add "200 kills" in jest or as a prank. Per WP:V, a source is required to take this number seriously and not as a hoax. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:09, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment The German Federal Archives have digitized the nomination, and/or approval/rejection documentations for the Knight's Cross. These records are available online via the de:Deutsche Digitale Bibliothek. I believe you have to register to get access to Preiss' records, available here. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 07:44, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment The German Federal Archives have not digitized the nomination, and/or approval/rejection documentations for the Knight's Cross. As far as I know they do not plan to do so, either. What they are putting online are their inventories and finding aids. So in BArch, RH 7/424 you'll find documents pertaining to Josef Preiss' award. But you still have to visit the archives to have a look.--Assayer (talk) 01:38, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * They are available, so someone can go and get them. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:52, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
 * WP:RS requires reliable secondary sources (especially in the context of WP:MILMOS), not unreliable primary ones. Please see Assayer's analysis (link) on why the nomination materials may not be reliable as to what actually led to the nomination. Additional comments at: Articles for deletion/Christian Bachmann (both AfDs closed as "delete"). K.e.coffman (talk) 06:59, 29 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Passes WP:SOLDIER. Snipers can be notable in their own right, eg Billy Sing. Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:52, 26 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment -- snipers can be notable, but so far no sources, reliable or otherwise, have been presented to indicate if this particular soldier is notable. WP:SOLDIER is a project-specific essay, and WikiProjects do not define notability, only community as a whole. Further, the essay is subordinate to WP:GNG, and WP:SIGCOV is required to establish notability of the subject under discussion. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:15, 27 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment -- so far, none of the keep votes have provided policy-based arguments or included any sources. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:44, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Bei letzterem zeichnete sich Unteroffizier J Preis besonders aus GeneralfeldMarshall Schoerner Oberbefehlshaber der Heersgruppe Mitte wuerdigte zum Vorschlag fuer die Verliehung des RitterKreuz am 7.4.45 die Tat des Josef Preis init folgenden Worten: "Ein beispielgebender entschlossener gewehrfuehrer dessen in kaltbluetigem Ausharren erzielten Kampferfolg der Aufbau eine neuen Hautkampflinie zu verdanken ist. Der Vorschlag fuer die Verliehung des RitterKreuz wird besonders befuerwortet" Do we even have the name of the article right? Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:55, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
 * That is the same person; he's listed in the German archives as Preiss: link. The text above appears about him: Preiss was nominated for the RK on 7 April 1945, with Ferdinand Schörner enthusiastically endorsing the nomination in these words: "An exemplary resolute troop leader who achieved success in the enduring struggle." (blame the kludgy translation on Google). K.e.coffman (talk) 04:07, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Don't see anything about being a sniper though. Hawkeye7 (talk) 00:15, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete Not notable (and also stubby and with unsrc "he totes killed two hundred enemies!" to boot which really grinds my gears). Seems like much of the discussion at Articles for deletion/Heinrich Debus (SS officer) provides ample reasons and parallels, no? About failing GNG and BIO1E. (Thanks for teaching me a new Wiki concept, Mr. dead SS officer!) I see people saying he passes WP:SOLDIER but that's only an essay and does he really? Yes, he was "awarded their nation's highest award", but even according to that page (or the previously linked AfD talkpage) that's not an automatic notability pass, it also says that there ought to be "significant coverage in multiple verifiable independent, reliable sources" and that people "only mentioned in passing in secondary sources should not be considered notable for the purposes of a stand-alone article", which judging by the info about sources at the Debus AfD talkpage might also apply here? Oh and I don't want to get involved in wiki drama too much but I feel like there really ought to be some kind of a tune up to the customs and guidelines when it comes to people like this whose claim to wiki-fame-and-reliability is an inclusion in a list of an inflated reward. --CCCVCCCC (talk) 08:38, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   18:21, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: WP:SOLDIER has been modified to state:
 * "What constitutes the "highest" award has been the subject of debate. Some awards, such as the Légion d'Honneur and the Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, are/were bestowed in different grades and/or have civil and military versions. For the purpose of this notability guide it is considered that only the highest military grade of such awards is likely to result in significant coverage to confer notability."
 * Please see diif. As such, a KC award is currently not sufficient to satisfy WP:SOLDIER, which in any case is an essay, not a guideline. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:58, 30 September 2016 (UTC)


 * Redirect: there doesn't seem to be enough coverage for a stand alone article, but if the award is verified it seems fair enough to redirect it to the parent list. List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients (P). Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 00:57, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Redirect. Lacks WP:SIGCOV but seems like a valid search term at the least given that he appears to be a verified recipient of the KC. Redirect to parent article i.e. List of Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross recipients (P). Anotherclown (talk) 03:42, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep It clearly passes WP:SOLDIER. Cedible sources state the amount of confirmed kills seanhaley1 (talk) 23:36, 5 October 2016 (UTC)
 * Ambox warning pn.svg— Suspicious account: Please note that the above contributor has recently created an account, rapidly made 10 edits and then started !voting on multiple AfDs, many of which don't make sense. See Special:Contributions/Seanhaley1 for their edits. There is a possibility that this is an undisclosed paid editor/canvassed editor/sockpuppet who is probably voting on multiple AfDs to hide the actual target. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 07:51, 6 October 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.